Berry's .45 acp 185 grain HBRN, bullet tilt and the redding competition seater

[RussellC]

Was having some trouble loading these, results showed a mark on half the case where the base of the bullet appeared to be tilted. Commercial rounds I have on hand, (Defense type, Gold dots and HST) don't show this, appears to be even all the way around the case.

I read one guys take on accurate reloading who suggested removing the spring in the ram that holds the case holder in place, as he claimed they tilted the case holder which lead to tilted seating. He suggested holding shell holder in place with a rubber O ring. This did not help one iota in my case.

Returning the spring and purchasing the Redding Competition bullet seater with the micrometer top solved the whole problem. What a nice unit it is once set up. There is an excellent youtube of a guy setting one up for .45 acp that is very helpful, and much, much more than the enclosed instructions tell, which isn't much.

He installed the die with out the micrometer, spring or seater, sized and flared the case just to the point of hearing a slight, very slight scraping. Pushed the case in, then measured the bell afterwards and set the flare to duplicate that size.

Then put the insides back in with the micrometer set to the middle setting, and began adjusting for final OAL. After following these steps, the seater puts them in much more consistently than the Lee seater I have always used. And, the bullet is perfectly centered, with a slight consistent ring around the case from the base of the bullet.

Russellc

 

[JO JO]

not sure I understand, I do not have a redding comp die but my dies have different bullet seating plugs for round nose and flat point bullets
looks like you you it fixed

 

[Walkalong]

The Redding Competition seaters do a great job. You still need to start the bullet straight, but it will help if you start it real crooked. An M Die type expander is a great help to getting bullets seated straight. Either the Lyman its self or the RCBS and Redding copies.

 

[1KPerDay]

Sounds like you've got it figured out the way you want. As for me I find the standard seating die from Lee and the FCD, same way I load all .45 ACP, resulted in extremely accurate, light recoiling loads, regardless of how careful I was to start the bullets straight.

 

[RussellC]

not sure I understand, I do not have a redding comp die but my dies have different bullet seating plugs for round nose and flat point bullets
looks like you you it fixed

Mine has whatever it comes with, and I have only used it with round nose thus far.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

The Redding Competition seaters do a great job. You still need to start the bullet straight, but it will help if you start it real crooked. An M Die type expander is a great help to getting bullets seated straight. Either the Lyman its self or the RCBS and Redding copies.

Funny you mentioned that, I am getting the M type expander next. So impressed with the .45 seater that I am going to get one for 9mm and .223 as well.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

Sounds like you've got it figured out the way you want. As for me I find the standard seating die from Lee and the FCD, same way I load all .45 ACP, resulted in extremely accurate, light recoiling loads, regardless of how careful I was to start the bullets straight.

Normally the lee works fine, these particular bullets are giving me fits. You can see the outline on one side of the case but not the other. Precision Delta 230 grain FMJ seem to seat fine with the Lee, occasionally they get a little sideways. Some of the 185 grain bullets were obviously worse than others. The Redding Competition die works fine, perfect alignment everytime!

I had seen some earlier posts about one of our members, I forget who now that was having similar troubles with the same bullet, and like I also found, was having trouble with them getting off center and scraping the plating off, and malforming the edge of the case.

This seater is different from the Lee, it has a tube that keeps it straight, and it sits on a spring. Aligns perfectly!

Russellc

 

[LiveLife]

The Redding Competition seaters do a great job. You still need to start the bullet straight, but it will help if you start it real crooked. An M Die type expander is a great help to getting bullets seated straight. Either the Lyman its self or the RCBS and Redding copies.

Another option is Lee Universal Flaring Die and NOE Expander Plug (essentially "M" die with the option of "Universal" flaring die) - http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=89&products_id=1611

Too bad NOE stopped making Powder Thru "M" expander plugs for Lee dies. Maybe we could ask Lee Precision if they would make them.

I had seen some earlier posts about one of our members, I forget who now that was having similar troubles with the same bullet, and like I also found, was having trouble with them getting off center and scraping the plating off, and malforming the edge of the case.

That was ArchAngelCD using Lee dies and he ended up sending me a sample of the offending bullets to see if I experienced the same problem of bullet tilting and shaving the plating - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/problems-with-the-45-auto.795629/page-2#post-10158329

I flared the case mouths to .472" and loaded them to 1.255" - 1.260" OAL with tighter .471" taper crimp and no bullet tilting and no bulging of case. I even intentionally tried to tilt the bullets during seating and seating/crimp die straighten them up.

Rounds loaded with ArchAngelCD's bullets

ArchAngelCD eventually isolated the problem to Powder Thru Expander not expanding the case enough (my expander flared case mouth to .472") - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/problems-with-the-45-auto.795629/page-3#post-10166726

I put all 10 through the powder through die none would flare more than .470" with several .469". I would say this is the problem and I don't know why I didn't realize this earlier ... I would buy a different expander if I didn't need a powder through die. I guess I will contact Lee for a replacement.

Update - Well well, it seems the new die did the trick. I tested it tonight and all flared enough to seat the bullet without incident.

 

[LiveLife]

Berry's .45 acp 185 grain HBRN, bullet tilt ... showed a mark on half the case where the base of the bullet appeared to be tilted. Commercial rounds I have on hand, (Defense type, Gold dots and HST) don't show this, appears to be even all the way around the case.

I seat Berry's 185 gr HBRN to 1.260" (1.250" for Sig 1911 due to no leade barrel) and .472" taper crimp with Lee dies and do not get one sided bullet tilt mark (whatever bulging I do see is fairly even around the case - see picture below) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...g-hbrn-plated-45-bullets.626092/#post-7733949

Keep in mind that Berry's sizes their plated bullets slightly larger and advertises them .001" larger than jacketed bullet diameters - https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq#FAQ4

Is this what you are seeing?

Factory PMC/CCI 230 gr FMJ, Berry's 185 gr HBRN, HSM 230 gr HP

 

[RussellC]

No, with the Lee seater, I am (mostly) getting mark around 1/2 the case, smooth on the other side. With the Redding die, the mark is nice and even all the way around. Am I doing something wrong with the Lee die? I have cleaned it, etc. Sometimes the uneven mark is fairly pronounced on the side with the mark.



Russellc

 

[Walkalong]

Another option is Lee Universal Flaring Die and NOE Expander Plug (essentially "M" die with the option of "Universal" flaring die) - http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=89&products_id=1611

Yes, forgot to mention that.

 

[Walkalong]

Am I doing something wrong with the Lee die?

My guess is the inner diameter of the die is larger letting the bullet tilt more, the stem is off center or doesn't fit the nose well, you are not starting them straight, or a little bit of two or three of those things.

 

[RussellC]

Thinking its number one, not fitting that bullet. Others do fine

 

[RussellC]

The bottom edge of these bullets is rounded, I think this, along with the particular shape of the nose, is what makes the difficulty.

Seems to tend to be crooked regardless of how careful I am when seating the bullet. Some slightly tilted, some moreso, some so crooked the plating begins to scrape off and deform the edge of the case.

Redding die puts it in perfect, plus the OAl is WAY more consistent as well.

Russellc

 

[LiveLife]

Could you check the seating stem for any irregularity?

How much are you flaring the case mouth?

 

[RussellC]

Could you check the seating stem for any irregularity?

How much are you flaring the case mouth?

I will examine it, I tried flaring more as that was the "cure" in the other thread I was reading about these bullets. It helped, but by no means cured the tilt problem with this bullet.
When I first tried the Redding unit, it was flared enough to stick on entry, well on "not entry" I guess, .473? if I remember correctly, and I may not be, it may have been more.

I lessened it until it would slide into the Redding unit with no insides with a slight scraping noise, (maybe that was .473?) used that figure after the "scraping" lessened it to measurement I set the Lee expander to, then went to town. Very impressed with this seater!

Russellc

 

[LiveLife]

Yes, I think proper amount of flare (I used .472") or "stepped" flaring with the "M" die is key.

I sent Lee Precision an email asking if they would consider making stepped Powder Thru Expanders.

Too bad NOE stopped making Powder Thru "M" expander plugs for Lee dies. Maybe we could ask Lee Precision if they would make them.

 

[RussellC]

Yes, I think proper amount of flare (I used .472") or "stepped" flaring with the "M" die is key.

I sent Lee Precision an email asking if they would consider making stepped Powder Thru Expanders.

I use a Lee turret press, and I was wondering if I could remove the expander from the Lee powder die and if it would still work? That way, I could replace the crimp die with the Lyman M expander, put the crimp (if a caliber I use one on) on my single stage press and run them through it at the end. A M expander in the Lee die would be great, wonder why anyone uses a "non M" die?



Russellc

 

[RussellC]

Well, I mean one with powder through capability. Does the NOE unit linked to allow this? I see its is for the Universal expander, not the powder die? I suppose one removes the expander from the Lee powder through die when using this setup?

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

Could you check the seating stem for any irregularity?

How much are you flaring the case mouth?

What am I looking for in terms of "irregularity"?

Russellc

 

[LiveLife]

What am I looking for in terms of "irregularity"?

Any gunk/build up or manufacturing defect that would not allow consistent contact with bullet nose/ogive.

Well, I mean one with powder through capability. Does the NOE unit linked to allow this? I see its is for the Universal expander, not the powder die? I suppose one removes the expander from the Lee powder through die when using this setup?

NOE sells "stepped" expander plugs for Lee Universal Neck Expanding die - http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=89&products_id=1611

As to powder through stepped expander plug, NOE makes limited runs in various calibers and sizes and currently shows nothing in stock. I think members at Castboolits begged for the last run and there's no guarantee if/when another run will be made - http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=91

That's why I suggested to Lee if they would consider producing "stepped" powder expander plugs.

 

[Walkalong]

As to powder through stepped expander plug, NOE makes limited runs

If you are in need, send a NOE solid expander to me and I'll make it a powder through.

 

[LiveLife]

Really?

Woohoo!

 

[LiveLife]

Dang, NOE plugs for the Universal Neck Expander die is not the same length/diameter as Lee Powder Thru Expander.

Here's 45ACP NOE stepped plug compared to Lee Powder Thru Expander

 

[RussellC]

Well nutz! Appreciate the offer. Can a Lee universal expander be converted via the NOE plug and parts from my existing expander? I have never seen the Lee universal expander but assume it has no facility to attach powder measure?

Blast....

Russellc