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Best 9mm and training .22 combo?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by <SLV>, Mar 26, 2017.

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  1. <SLV>

    <SLV> Member

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    My teen girls are ready to start some pistol training. I'd like to start them on .22 to get them used to handling a pistol before moving up to and EDC 9mm. Ideally I would like to have the transition be ergonomically identical.

    I'm looking at the Shield and .22 Compact, but they don't look ergonomically identical. Same with the Walther PPS and P22 (and I heard the P22 was picky with ammo). Then I thought about the G43 and a .22 conversion.

    Any suggestions?
     
  2. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    What immediately comes to mind is a used 9mm Glock with a .22 conversion kit.or a used 9mm CZ with a Kadet (.22 conversion) Kit.

    You only have to buy one gun and a .22 conversion kit (which isn't considered a fire arm.) Then you have the same gun, shooting different rounds.

    Getting the gun and the .22 conversion kit may actually be less expensive than buying the ones you cited above. I'd prefer the CZ, but the Kadet Kits are pricey (but VERY accurate.) A used CZ or a used Glock would be a good starting point.

    Converting from 9mm to .22 takes about a minute, and is as simple as changing slides and magazines.
     
  3. <SLV>

    <SLV> Member

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    I love CZ, but do they have a single stack nine? I'mconcerned about grip size.
     
  4. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    Not many single-stack nines to be found anywhere, any more -- never were, for that matter. And darned few conversion kits that'll fit them. Some of the single-stack 9mm guns didn't have particularly thin grips, either. (A 9mm 1911 may be an option.)

    The CZ P-07 is worth a look, and checking grip size should be easy -- A Gander Mountain has them on sale (so they'll have them to handle). Their prices tend to be HEALTHY, however.

    The 2nd Gen P-07s have grip inserts that can be changed, and there is a Kadet Kit for them, too. And if you use the decocker option (user changeable), you start from the half-cock notch, which shortens the trigger reach a little.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  5. KNO3

    KNO3 Member

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    My kids started going to the range with me for around 4 years ago. During that time I've been using the Advantage Arms .22 conversion on my Glock 19 frame. Except for it being a little finicky on the ammo, it's been a consistent performer and have recommended it may times. Can be hard to find although cmcgov.com is carrying them for $275. That being said, I can't find a conversion kit for your G43 from either Advantage Arms or Tactical Solutions, so exploring that avenue may be a mute point.
     
  6. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    If grip size is a concern my CZ75 SA with thin grips is thinner side to side and back to front than a 1911 and more contoured in the web of the hand. A very ergonomically pleasing designed frame, paired with the SAO trigger would be a great trainer for someone with small hands since there's no long DA pull on the first shot to contend with.
     
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  7. earplug

    earplug Member

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    I'm not a fan of training with a conversion. They are ammo picky, have expensive magazines and the lack of recoil can cause problems when firing the centerfire host gun.
    Buy a new Ruger Mark IV and be done with the drama. Get the basics down and then have THEM pick a centerfire pistol that works, instead of getting a gun with a conversion that is a compromise at best.
     
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  8. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    Any .22 can be ammo picky, and many are -- especially if you're using cheap/bulk .22 ammo. I've never had problems with my Kadet Kit, but have had problems with a Ruger MKI and several MKIIs. It's often ammo and not the gun. The sudden presence of heavier recoil shouldn't cause any MORE problems when the centerfire slide is installed than when the shooter was previously using a different rimfire gun; and because the gun otherwise feels the same, the sights are likely to be the same, and the trigger will be the same, problems could actually be lessened.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
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  9. <SLV>

    <SLV> Member

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    I'll probably just get the S&W P22 compact and use it for training. They likely won't touch a 9mm for a few years yet. But the format will give them a familiarity with the modern compact auto, so stepping into a single stack 9mm should be intuitive.
     
  10. CNobbe

    CNobbe Member

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    Just buy an S&W Victory or a Buckmark pistol. They're way more fun to shoot with than most .22 uppers. I have a Kadet for my 75, but the Victory is just better and only cost a few bucks more.
     
  11. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    You better start looking for that single-stack 9mm soon, as about the only ones you can find nowadays are sub-compacts that aren't for the weak of heart, or shooters new to centerfire guns. Some of the older S&W semi-autos might fill that bill, but they may not be around when you are ready to buy one for the kids.
     
  12. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    I have to recommend the Sig Sauer 938. I love mine, perfect size for 9mm carry, and I understand that there is a 22LR conversion kit available (I haven't purchased one yet).
     
  13. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    I have rather small hands the CZ P01 fits my hand as well as the Browning Hi-Power. Add a Kadet .22 conversion kit and you should be good to go.
     
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  14. Winkman822

    Winkman822 Member

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    I'd vote for a quality 9mm 1911 and a .22 1911. For a 9mm, you have your pick of the litter (Springfield, Colt, Sig, Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk Custom, etc.), and for a .22, I'd vote for the Walther/Colt 1911 in .22 or maybe the Chiappa 1911 .22. If you weren't averse to standard capacity magazines, I'd go with the Sig P226 or P320 (the .22 equivalent is the the P250).
     
  15. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    It's apparently a good weapon, and a good choice for concealed carry, but the SIG 938 may NOT be the best weapon for someone who is used to shooting low-recoil rimfire guns and is ready to transition to centerfire guns.

    A full-size 9mm iis probably the best choice for that stage of the shooting experienece -- until the shooters get more experienced. (As Winkman822 suggests, above, a 9mm 1911 and a .22 that looks and function like a 1911, could be a good choice -- or a 9mm 1911 and a .22 conversion kit.)

    Conversion kits are also available for Browning Hi-Powers, too, and surplus BHPs are floating around and reasonably priced.

    EAA also makes a full-size gun based on the CZ pattern with conversion kits available for .22, 9mm, .38 Super, .40, .45, and 10mm rounds. Lot of options that way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  16. highlander 5

    highlander 5 Member

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    I have 2 9mm pistols that have companion 22 kits,CZ 75 and Beretta 92fs. Neither has been pick about ammo shot everything from the bulk pack ammo to CCI minimal with no problem. Both kits are made by their respective companies and are a bit pricey $400 average but they are worth it in you have both a self defense and pinker in one gun. Word of advice stay away from the Ciener kits he has terrible CS assuming he's not in jail for taking people's money and not delivering products
     
  17. bassjam

    bassjam Member

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    If your teen girls are new to handguns, I don't think it matters if you get a .22 that's similar to a centerfire handgun. The safety aspects will be the same regardless, and that's what's most important at this point. The 2nd most important thing is for them to have fun, and for that reason I suggest a Buckmark, Mark series, or Victory. Let them get the basics down with a full sized target style .22 with a long sight radius and enough accuracy for them to see great results once they've developed some skill. I started my daughter with my Mark I and Buckmark when she was 7. She knows she can shoot minute of beer can at 7 yards with the Mark I or Buckmark and LOVES seeing those cans bounce, but when I let her try out a Ruger SR22 she only managed to get hits about 10% of the time and started getting discouraged and clearly wasn't having fun anymore. It'll be awhile before I let her step up to a 9mm since she's still only 9, but I'll probably start her on my CZ75b when I think she's ready.

    Here she is a year ago. We normally take turns, she shoots a mag at cans and then I go back to 10-15 yards and shoot a mag at shotgun shells.

    IMG_4076.PNG
     
  18. sigarms228

    sigarms228 Member

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    I think this would work very well. The M&P .22 Compact is very close the Shield. Even if you end up going with another choice for 9MM the M&P .22 Compact is still a good choice IMO. Mine has been very reliable with a wide variety of ammo. The .22 is great for learning so that a new shooter can concentrate on fundamentals and not be distracted by significant recoil and noise.
     
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  19. <SLV>

    <SLV> Member

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    I love the P01. But $450 for a conversion kit???
     
  20. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    In my experience, in instructing and coaching for over 15yrs, and religiously using trainer 22 pistols, I'd not concern yourself with matching identically your full caliber firearm with your trainer. Having similarly located manual of arms is a slight advantage, but should not be a necessity. The important factor of the 22LR trainer is to choose a model which "removes all alibis and excuses," meaning it should have a sufficient barrel length such sight radius is not a problem, should have sufficient sights such picture is not a problem, should have a size such sufficient grip is not a problem, should have sufficient weight such recoil is not a problem, and should have a sufficiently good single action trigger such trigger management cannot be a problem... And of course, they need to be sufficiently inexpensive such they're not cost prohibitive to own and maintain - these should be shot FREQUENTLY (start every session with this pistol), so they will take wear and require service as a matter of standard preventative maintenance and repair.

    As such, in my experience, the best advantaged 22LR pistol trainer is a target style pistol: Ruger Mark series, Browning Buckmark, Beretta U22 NEOS, S&W Victory, etc. Combat style 22 pistols like the S&W M&P22, Ruger SR22, Sig Mosquito, etc are very fun pistols and are a lot of fun, but I have not seen the same advantage for shooter development with these as I have for target style pistols. I have not personally seen, as an instructor or a shooter, the conversions offer a significant advantage either. I have 1911 and Glock conversions, and outside of competition specific training, I have not seen these to be a significant advantage over a target style conventional 22 LR pistol - and of course, these conversions often cost as much, or nearly so, as a dedicated 22LR pistol, so outside of competition, I can't say I recommend them.
     
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  21. boatdoc173

    boatdoc173 Member

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    when I was 1st shooting, my lgs owner friend suggested buying a gun in 22 that matches my carry in 9mm or 45.

    the S+W M+P line fit that mold.

    although over the years, I grew tired of trying to master the M+P. it was a great place to strat shooting auto loaders

    good luck with your kids

    stay safe
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  22. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    There are too many compromises involved in using the same gun for initial training of young people and eventual EDC in a different caliber.

    A full-size target pistol makes the best .22 trainer but would not conceal worth a darn. A compact or sub-compact pistol is what you want for EDC, but a very small gun is far from ideal for initial training purposes.

    The best results will ultimately come from getting the best gun to satisfy each different purpose.
     
  23. I6turbo

    I6turbo Member

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    I love the Kadet Kit on the CZ 9mm guns. At about $380 when sellers have them in stock http://www.gunbroker.com/item/633591902 they aren't cheap, but they are worth the money IMO. I shoot my Kadet more accurately than my Buckmark Plus UDX, K-22, or AMT Lightning 22 LR.
     
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  24. Sebastian the Ibis
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    Sebastian the Ibis Member

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    I would not start anyone on a shield or any other 9mm pocket pistol. The recoil is unpleasant and may turn-off a new shooter. I'd go with a full or compact size pistol. The G4 Glocks, S&W M&P and Sig 320's were all designed with modularity in mind to fit tiny hands, I'd go with one of those. A 9mm 1911 is another choice, if you are really concerned about it.
     
  25. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    The compromises only arise if the person wants to use a concealed carry weapon for part of the training process -- when the folks being trained aren't familiar with more powerful weapons.. The guy who started this discussion wasn't concerned about helping his kids/grandkids to get ready for concealed carry.

    If concealed carry isn't an issue, a compact or full-size gun in 9mm (which will have manageable recoil) and a conversion kit would work fine. But so would two guns of a similar style or design, with one in center fire and one in rim fire. Or a 1911 in 9mm and a 1911-like gun [maybe a GSG], or 1911 (maybe in 9mm, with a quality conversion kit, ala Marvel). The original poster, I think, said he has two 1911s.
     
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