Best close-quarters defense rifles?

[SOT_II]

The gunsite information is quoted directly from the FBI tests of "layerd" 5/8 inch sheet rock. They built a shoot box with layers of sheet rock with equal gaps between them. The shot various rounds at various distances and measured penetration.

So the 9mm would go through (let say) six panels, and the .5.56 would go through maybe 5 or would tumble so badly they would shoot out of the side of the box...and that was a "success".

Unfortunately if you built a "normal" home wall and shot through it...the results would be entirely the opposite.
The 9mm embeds in the outer wall in many cases...the 5.56 would sail right theough and end up about 200 yards down range. Many companies and departments followed the test criteria and it supported exactly what the FBI said. When we did our tests were near identical, but when we built a simulated house with walls glass and sheetrock set on studs and designed to be two or three walls in a house with external hardboard siding...the 5.56 was a mocu more dangerous round. Not to mention the problems and distance lethality with shooting through glass.

 

[355sigfan]

M4 if cost is issue. MP5 if it isn't.
END QUOTE

The M4 is tops no matter what the cost. If you like the HK weapon system go with the HK53 in 223. Its basically a MP5 in 223. Not a bad weapon and its far better than a subgun. When you need a long gun you need more power than a handgun provides. A MP5 is a large handgun that fires fast. Its a fine sub gun. I just don't like sub guns. In general they are falling out of favor and are being replaced by compact 223 carbines in semi and full auto versions.
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

The 9mm embeds in the outer wall in many cases...the 5.56 would sail right theough and end up about 200 yards down range. Many companies and departments followed the test criteria and it supported exactly what the FBI said. When we did our tests were near identical, but when we built a simulated house with walls glass and sheetrock set on studs and designed to be two or three walls in a house with external hardboard siding...the 5.56 was a mocu more dangerous round. Not to mention the problems and distance lethality with shooting through glass.
END QUOTE

Sorry thats entirely false. Pistol rounds are actually better at penetrating walls and windshield glass unless you use bonded ammo in the 223. Thats what makes them better choices for home defense and building entries. The Gunsite info is correct.

I have verified it myself with tests on the range using various scrap building materials. The truth is all bullets are dangerious inside homes. But 223's are a better choice than handgun rounds.
Pat

 

[MrMurphy]

Worry less about which wonder bullet will do the job or stop slightly sooner in a wall (face it, all of them are going to go through at least one wall). Worry more about hitting your target with your round and not having stray rounds in the first place.


A 9mm, .40, .45 ACP pistol caliber carbine, .357, .44/.45 levergun will all certainly do the job and have killed enough bad guys over the decades (centuries in some cases).

A SKS or AK would certainly do the job though it may not be the best for it.

But by preference I would still take a short barreled AR15 with softpoints or M193 ball. If I couldn't get that, an M1 Carbine with softpoints, then any of the rest.

 

[meh92]

I like the M4 platform and it certainly would work well for you. Unfortunately these guns, and accessories, are expensive. A decent 12ga or 20ga pump would also serve well for home defense and be quite a lot cheaper.

If you weren't too opposed to the idea of using your 1894/.44 mag I'd look into several .44 special loads and chronograph them. I've read some ballistic reports showing factory .44 special loads being pushed into the 1100 FPS range. A well designed 180-200gr .44 HP at or around 1100 FPS should prove adequate for short-range defense. Also, you may want to consider frangible ammunition if indoor overpenetration is a serious concern. Magsafe and Glazer (sp?) both make rounds for the .44.

I have a Winchester '94 in .44mag and I've considered using it for home defense but was aslo worried about overpenetration with traditional hunting loads.

 

[DHart]

meh92... Good idea. I finally decided I needed to buy a Chrony and do some testing myself. I'm going to see what the WW .44spl Silvertip does out of my 1894SS with 20" barrel. I'm also considering shortening the barrel length to 16", because I really like the "Trapper" size lever rifles.

I agree that if I can get a factory .44spl JHP to move out at around 1100fps, that should make an excellent close range defense load from a Trapper-size lever rifle... and it would have virtually no recoil out of a carbine.

 

[JWH 223]

Pulling out of my safe, I'd grab one of these...

SW5 PDW in 9mm

Bushmaster P97 pistol...now SBR in .223

Custom Bushy M17S bullpup in .223

 

[artherd]

Any round is going through a LOT of houses before it will stop.

Compare 9mm, .45ACP, .22LR and .223REM. The .22LR goes through quite a lot of building material.

But the .223 is the lowest penetrating, and hardest hitting of the 'defense-sized' rounds, by a signifigant margin.

It's the best choice. But as always, hit what you shoot.

A Suppressed M4 with a Surefire is about the best you can get.

 

[JShirley]

You could definitely do worse.

I'd love to try out a fairly short-barreled, suppressed .45-70 someday, but I know I'd be working for weeks to find a fairly low-pen load. A 300 grain JHP at maybe 1650 (1895G, GA Arms load) fps penetrated a level II vest, railroad tie, and the other side of the vest.

And kept going. Love to spend some time working up, say, a 520 grain blunt nose at walking speed. I'm guessing a very careful heat treat would be required, to get a harder base and soft (deforming) nose. Then again, maybe a sabot carrying an extremely soft load would work at close range. ?

John, likes his hearing

 

[tex_n_cal]

Boy, the more I think of it, I really like the idea of that .17 HMR for this stated purpose.

 

[JShirley]

I'm afraid that hitting the wrong angle or obejct (sternum?) would just result in a flesh wound with a .17.
John

 

[44]

What are the legal methods of reducing the noise of muzzle blast? I mean the reduction of its effect on the eardrums. What are the legal things that can be done to the gun? Thanks. 44

 

[355sigfan]

What are the legal methods of reducing the noise of muzzle blast? I mean the reduction of its effect on the eardrums. What are the legal things that can be done to the gun? Thanks. 44

END QUOTE

You have 2 choices. Go through the legal process to get a sound suppressor if legal in your state. Or simply use hearing protection that amplify your hearing until the shot goes off. Such as the electronic muffs offered by Peltor. I use a set of Peltors on gun calls for entries.
Pat

 

[Ktulu]

Gosh dang JWH 223, that SBR is tasty.


So, can we all finally agree that the AR-15, with proper ammo, is the ultimate home defense gun?

 

[lycanthrope]

M4. Collapseable stock if the AWB dies.

 

[Fatelvis]

For close range, how `bout a 12 guage Benelli semi-auto?

 

[KLR]

JWH 223

Where did you get the G-36K rail that is on your Bushmaster M-17?

 

[355sigfan]

For close range, how `bout a 12 guage Benelli semi-auto?

END QUOTE

A shotgun is better than nothing but I would rather have a good 223 Carbine and preferably a M4 at any range.
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

For close range, how `bout a 12 guage Benelli semi-auto?

END QUOTE

A shotgun is better than nothing but I would rather have a good 223 Carbine and preferably a M4 at any range.
Pat

 

[Marshall]

So, can we all finally agree that the AR-15, with proper ammo, is the ultimate home defense gun?

BZZZT. Shotgun by far.

 

[DHart]

My new Close Quarters Defense Rifle

I tried to like the modern style urban assault rifles (AR, M4, etc.), but just couldn't warm up to them no matter how much I tried. For my low risk lifestyle (not a cop, no friends in illegal lines of work, etc.) I decided that the rifle to join my defense team (Colt 1911's, Kahr PM-9, Mossberg 500 "Persuader") was a lever rifle.

When I handled this little carbine I was so impressed! It's packed with great features:

Legacy/Rossi '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .454 Casull/.45 Colt

• Small (16" barrel) and remarkably maneuverable

• Light (about 5.7 lbs.)

• .45Colt and .454 Casull ammo options everything from watered-down, economical Cowboy loads for plinking to full power CorBon .45Colt JHP to super-power .454 Casull (Win. Supreme Partition 260 gr. JHP 2255 fps / 2935 FPE from this rifle) a very versatile chambering!

• Hi-Viz sights (green rear dots, red front dot) are bright as can be... really quick to acquire.

• Nicely cushioned open weave buttpad absorbs the .454 recoil beautifully

• front loading port in the tube is superb alternative to use to relieve your thumb from pushing rounds into the receiver loader.

• great looks - fine grain black finished hardwood looks like ebony against the bright stainless steel

• stainless steel for low maintenance

$469...this rifle's definitely got the goods!

 

[355sigfan]

BZZZT. Shotgun by far.
END QUOTE

Like I said the shotgun is a respectable weapon but it has more disadvantages compared to advantages overall when compared to a good semi auto 223 carbine. But each will do a good job if you do yours. The only guns I don't like for home defense are rifles in calibers larger than 223. They do over penetrate. Bolt actions in particular are a poor choice due to their low rate of fire. Lever actions can do in a pinch. I don't care for pistol caliber carbines. Their better than a handgun but far behind a shotgun or 223 auto.
Pat

 

[DHart]

355... I can understand how a good .223 semi-auto would be a great choice! And if I ever feel a very serious need for home protection, I'll probably get one. But for my low-risk situation, and living in the country on acerage, I decided the combination of 1911's, Mossy Persuader, and Legacy lever rifle would be just fine. I enjoy the "visual art" the 1911's and lever rifles exhibit as well.

 

[PAC 762]

Like I said the shotgun is a respectable weapon but it has more disadvantages compared to advantages overall when compared to a good semi auto 223 carbine. But each will do a good job if you do yours. The only guns I don't like for home defense are rifles in calibers larger than 223. They do over penetrate. Bolt actions in particular are a poor choice due to their low rate of fire. Lever actions can do in a pinch. I don't care for pistol caliber carbines. Their better than a handgun but far behind a shotgun or 223 auto.

Please explain what advantages an M4 has over a shotgun for a civilian in the home defense role?

Shotgun (12g) will have better stopping power and less penetration. The M4 gives great range, but anyone trying to "defend" themselves at 50 yards or more is going to jail. An M4 carries more & lighter rounds, but it is a moot point when dealing with a static defense against a sigle home invader or a small group.

M4= $800
My police trade in Moss500 (w/ surefire foreend, speedfeed butt, extended mag and rifle sights)= $180

A pump gun is more reliable then an M4 and looks better to the cops and a jury.

Now, I'm a rifle guy who really likes the M4 platform. I have never found shotguns very interesting nor would I ever choose one for any paramilitary type action. However, if there is a niche for the combat shotgun, it is certainly home defense. It is far & away the better choice for realistic civilian home defense.

 

[Snowjob]

While I do like a "combat" shotgun, such as a Remington 870 Express Magnum or Mossberg 500 Cruiser, for in the home and camper, we are addressing "close-quarters" defense, which may not always be defined by the confines of one's abode. (Without going into 1.5 million scenarios) there is always some potential for an assault on oneself and family to move outside once begun indoors, to be initiated from outside, or to take place in an out-of-doors setting. If one is to prepare oneself with a TOOL that is "best" as a close-quarters defense firearm, one must be prepared to respond to threats outside the box, so to speak, of one's home; therefore, taking into consideration the potential need for greater range and (as was mentioned by 355sigfan) rate of fire.

I'm gonna have to go with 355sigfan and MrMurphy on this one. There have been good points raised about the alternative firearms in limited settings and uses, but a semi-auto .223 is my choice for best close-quarters all-around defense rifle.

Granted, I still like my shotgun for home-defense. Another consideration is comfort and ease-of-use. If you're most comfortable, thus more proficient, with a lever-gun, don't use a shotgun or semi-auto without first making yourself very familiar with it.

That said, I still want that Legacy/Rossi '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .454 Casull/.45 Colt listed by DHart