Best Hunting Caliber?

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If you can't drop a hog with a well placed shot with a .223 then a .308 isn't going to do you much more good.
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So you're saying a 60-80 grain bullet at roughly 3400+fps is just as effective as a 150-180 grain bullet at ~2700+ fps?

If this is true, I'm amazed. Would the higher velocity make up for the difference in weight of projectile with close to equal hydrostatic damage to the vitals?
 
It's a sign of the times that no one mentioned .30-30, which is the clear choice.

Load it up for larger game, load it down (110 grain or less, or 00 buck over a few grains of powder) for small game.

Click on levers in sig line for more information.
 
I think you could use a 22 rifle and a something in the 270 > 308 power range. I would not use the larger caliber for varmints except at long range. Use the 22LR for little stuff. The 243 or 25-06 would be adequate with proper bullet choice, and especially good for longer range shooting on coyotes without being excessive. I believe it will take a fair sized hog. Recoil is a lot less than the 270 > 308 power level.
 
I googled 223 tissue damage and this picture came up first, some guy got shot with 223 in the leg, i think it speaks for itself
 
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DIM, you might want to add a "graphic image" disclaimer to that link.

Yeah, I know it's a bullet wound and that should go without saying but sometimes you've still gotta CYA.
 
That's amazing. So, is that what you want a hunting bullet to do, though, is yaw and tumble and fragment like the .223 does? Seems like it'd be too destructive to the meat. No?
 
I like my marlin .45-70 as an all around hunting, dangerous game hunting, and bear defenseand home defense gun. I have it customized it can hold 8 cartridges, 22" barrel so it is fairly compact. THe beauty of the .45-70 is the wide variety of ammo available for it. You can get a 300 grain buffalo bore round that flies at almost 2400fps which is good for deer or close quarters home defense battles out to 200 yards, fairly flat shooting. You can get a lever evolution which shoots almost like a bolt action. Then if you want to go bear or moose or big dangerous game hunting you can go with a 400 grain to 550 grain solids or cast lead bullet pumped out from 2000fps - 1500fps... that will lay the smack down on anythink from elephants to xenomorphs haha to lightly armored vehicles, engine blocks, doors etc. Highly customziable rifle and with the lever action you get quick follow up shots where as with a bolt rifle follow up shots are slow.. you can get a scout scope in low power for shots out to 200 or even 300 yards if you practice, or a red dot for fast close quarters snap shots. very customizeable gun also if your into reloading you can make your own cartridges with all types of different bullet sizes from 250 grains to 550 grains, you can make them as fast or as slow as you want. You can customzie your ammo and bullet type to your task.
 
Purgatory said:
So you're saying a 60-80 grain bullet at roughly 3400+fps is just as effective as a 150-180 grain bullet at ~2700+ fps?

If this is true, I'm amazed. Would the higher velocity make up for the difference in weight of projectile with close to equal hydrostatic damage to the vitals?
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No, what I'm saying is that an ineffective shooter is an ineffective shooter regardless of what caliber you hand him.

If you can't hit vitals with a .223 you're not going to hit vitals with a .308.

But, I'll still play your game...If you're relying on hydrostatic damage to make up for poor marksmanship maybe you should spend a little more time at the range before you step into the woods.
 
Sheesh! Y'all think for a moment: "Vitals" means different things to different people, for one thing. Ease of hitting some critter in a clean-kill spot will vary with the situation. Some angles, a .223 is fine. Other angles, a large and heavy bullet is far superior. There is no "one size fits all".

"Marksmanship", also. Some of us get in a lot of trigger time. Many folks don't. Give other members credit for being trigger-time folks, not "one box a year" types. Just general principles, to save arguing.

Next: What's the most common use for some particular rifle/cartridge package? Mostly little stuff, or mostly hogs? If mostly hogs, go bigger than a .223--that general principles thing again. If only occasionally hogs, the answer for a .223 guy is to be pickier about what shot he's actually gonna take.

In posting, more thinking beats more hurrying. Avoid the syndrome of, "I gotta get this wondrous, definitive answer posted before somebody beats me to it!" that shows up all too often, okay? :D
 
I'd say that the good Ol' .30-30 fits the bill to a tee for your needs. No need for any fancy shmancy bullets here. Just use whatever plane jane SP ammo shoots best and be done with it. Depending on your local a box of Remington, Federal, Winchester SP ammo should be about $13 - $15. Since wild pigs are on the menu, I would welcome the ability to get off a quick second shot (which a lever action delivers in spades) in case you muff a shot or things get a little hairy.
 
Art Eatman said:
Sheesh! Y'all think for a moment: "Vitals" means different things to different people, for one thing. Ease of hitting some critter in a clean-kill spot will vary with the situation. Some angles, a .223 is fine. Other angles, a large and heavy bullet is far superior. There is no "one size fits all".

"Marksmanship", also. Some of us get in a lot of trigger time. Many folks don't. Give other members credit for being trigger-time folks, not "one box a year" types. Just general principles, to save arguing.

Next: What's the most common use for some particular rifle/cartridge package? Mostly little stuff, or mostly hogs? If mostly hogs, go bigger than a .223--that general principles thing again. If only occasionally hogs, the answer for a .223 guy is to be pickier about what shot he's actually gonna take.

In posting, more thinking beats more hurrying. Avoid the syndrome of, "I gotta get this wondrous, definitive answer posted before somebody beats me to it!" that shows up all too often, okay? :D
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I'm sorry Art but I just wholesale disagree with everything you said.

First, I wasn't in a rush with a wondrous, definitive answer. The OP asked for our opinions on what caliber we thought would be best for the game he listed and I did just that. Gave my opinion, as did everyone else. The .223 is effective against hogs, very popular on coyote, and with the right rounds leave enough hare to eat if the OP so wishes.

Vitals are vitals Art. Opinion doesn't change anatomy. I've killed more hogs with .223 than any other caliber. I wouldn't say I'm picky about my shots but I won't take a shot with a .30-30, .30-06, or .308 that I wouldn't take with a .223.

And marksmanship is necessary for quick clean kills. I wasn't downing anyones marksmanship ability when I said "if you can't hit vitals you should spend more time on the range", "YOU" is a broad reference to ANY hunter, and it's a responsibilty and requirement I hold myself to and I believe every hunter should. Accurate and proper bullet placement should be ahead of hydrostatic damage with every shot.

I'm confident in my abilities and the abilities of my chosen caliber, my freezer is proof. Just because my inital responce was short doesn't mean I didn't put plenty of thought AND experience into it.
 
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But, I'll still play your game...If you're relying on hydrostatic damage to make up for poor marksmanship maybe you should spend a little more time at the range before you step into the woods.
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For the record, I wasn't attacking, berating, or being intentionally condescending toward you in any way, FLAvalanche.

This sentence:
If you can't drop a hog with a well placed shot with a .223 then a .308 isn't going to do you much more good.
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and this sentence:
If you can't hit vitals with a .223 you're not going to hit vitals with a .308.
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-appear as different as night and day to me. I guess I misunderstood.

My questions were absolutely sincere. I'm on this forum MOSTLY to learn -even though that's probably not the best idea since it's all just people chattin', but I love to learn and discuss things, especially firearms.

In the future, if there's any doubt from anyone about my intentions with a post, if it seems smarty-pants, it's probably just a sincere inquiry from someone who truly doesn't know for sure and is sincerely interested in the information.

I admit the technical details of rifles, particularly, and their ballistics are a work-in-progress for me, but I very much enjoy all the nuances that can be discussed. So take my questions for what they read and not what you might think they may imply.

Ok, done deal. Water under the bridge. Moving forward.
 
For the record, I wasn't attacking, berating, or being intentionally condescending toward you in any way, FLAvalanche.
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I didn't feel you were, nor I you. Like I said, when I said "you" in that comment I was using it as a broad reference to all hunters.

I didn't intend for that to sound like a personal attack.

If you can't drop a hog with a well placed shot with a .223 then a .308 isn't going to do you much more good.
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Reading that outside of my post I can see why it's confusing. I wasn't comparing .223 to .308 I was comparing the hunter's ability with either caliber. I should have said something along the lines of "If you don't have the marksmanship ability to drop a hog with .223 then a .308 isn't going to do you much more good.". Something along the lines of a miss with a .223 is still a miss with a .308 or a non-vital shot with a .223 is still a non-vital shot with a .308.

Stuff gets lost in print...I think we're both victims of that.
 
Purgatory said:
That's amazing. So, is that what you want a hunting bullet to do, though, is yaw and tumble and fragment like the .223 does? Seems like it'd be too destructive to the meat. No?
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Personally I don't want a bullet to yaw and tumble like that. It doesn't burn off the energy quickly like something that opens up like a hollowpoint or softpoint. You obviously understand hydrostatic damage.

Think NASCAR for a moment because it's the best way to describe it. A hit straight into the wall is the hardest impact. All the stored energy in the car is dissipated immediately and quickly. That's your hydrostatic shock. The driver gets out slow because he still got his bell rung.

Now, take a look at a wreck where the car rolls half a dozen times. The stored energy in the car is bled off slowly. While those wrecks LOOK worse because you see a car flipping and twisting and parts flying off, to the driver, it's nothing, impact-wise, compared to hitting the wall head on at speed. That's kinda like the impact a yawing and tumbling has. Damage is done but if you didn't get penetration into the vitals it's not going kill the animal quick unless you're lucky enough to knick a main vein or artery.

.223 is known as a round that tumbles and yaws although it's mostly grossly exaggerated. I'm sure you've heard the "You don't want hit with a .223/5.56 because it'll go in your shoulder and come out your foot!".
 
.223 is known as a round that tumbles and yaws although it's mostly grossly exaggerated. I'm sure you've heard the "You don't want hit with a .223/5.56 because it'll go in your shoulder and come out your foot!".
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Exactly! That's exactly what I thought of the .223 and have heard those very stories about it's effects in 'Nam. The graphic pic of that guy's quad just completely destroyed with a single .22 cal projectile SEEMED to back-up those claims. So it lead me to believe that the .223/5.56 would not be very effective on anything larger than a coyote, or deer at best, if it just skitters around and flies apart, etc.

There is plenty of evidence that it's effective on a human, at least in a battle scenario where wounded is sometimes more preferable than dead-right-there, but I concluded that, as a hunting round, you would prefer it to "focus" it's damage in a precisely chosen area.

Am I on base here?
 
Here is a piece that I wrote a while back on my favorite hunting cartridges (plural because one is never enough):

In my mind the perfect hunting cartridge would sail out as far as you like, damage no meat, reliably drop any size prey, with little recoil, and be inexpensive and available...since that doesn't exist...and never will, the following is my selection for the near perfect rifle cartridges and their respective uses:


.22LR: Magnificent old chambering for small game such as squirrel, rabbit, and larger prey at short range with good shot placement. Added benefit of cheap and available ammunition.

.223Rem.: The choice of the US armed forces and groundhog hunters alike. This cartridge makes a great varmint and moderate size game round with flat trajectory, and many projectile options available for the task at hand. Relatively inexpensive and readily available ammunition is a added bonus. (.22-250 and .220Swift are honorable mentions but are much more costly)

.260Rem.: Introduced late in the past century, it has demonstrated itself to be a superb medium and large thin skinned game cartridge, the very flat trajectory and excellent BC makes the cartridge very effective with little recoil. (honorable mentions are the 6.5x55mmSwede and the 7mm-08Rem.)

.280Rem.: A near perfect large game cartridge with good trajectory and hard hitting power to take nearly any animal that strides the plains (or anywhere else) in NA, including most in the far north, whilst maintaining manageable recoil. (the .30-06Springfield and .270Win. are honorable mentions and more cost-effective alternatives)

.30-30Win.: Generally packaged in a lightweight handy rifle, the cartridge seemingly doesn't exhibit any attributes that make a rifle cartridge great, but the low-recoil, inexpensive ammunition, adequate power, and quick handling that it affords makes it a cartridge that has stood the test of time.

.375H&H: This big belted magnum can solve nearly any problem that you might encounter on the NA continent and most on the great dark continent as well. It offers good trajectory and plenty of power to put down beasts in the far north. (honorable mentions are the .338WM and the .300WM, but are slightly more limited in application)

.45-70Govt.: This lumbering old cartridge has proved itself to be a great brush cartridge and can quickly slay all but the largest beast with brute force. It has a reputation for making a large hole that you "can eat right up to".


As you may note there are no wildcats (though a few are not common cartridges), and little mention of magnums (for I believe the vast majority of hunting does not require one). Some are quite old, and some more recent rounds, none are terribly costly in comparison to similar cartridges or their respective use. It seems lately that there have been quite a few threads about this or that new uber-super round (some that look promising...others just expensive) or why old reliable is or isn't good enough any more.
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If forced to choose one for all of North American game it would be the .280Rem. Why?...versatility; it has the capability to down nearly any game, at a reasonably long range (certainly sufficient for hunting), and does so at an affordable cost and with reasonable recoil.

:)

thaumaturgist, you might want to take a look at the above.
 
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No, what I'm saying is that an ineffective shooter is an ineffective shooter regardless of what caliber you hand him.
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Well, if you could handle a little recoil, you might be able to use a more effective caliber. :neener:

I think the popularity of the .223 stems from the popularity of the AR15 that youngsters seem to prefer. I am not used to pistol grips and believe a proper hunting rifle needs to have some proper ergos. I'm old, I've been shooting a long time, and I'm fixed in my ways. I like my bolt guns, though lately I'm on a muzzle loading kick again.

Maverick....when I got my 7 mag, I was thinkin' about getting a .280. I thought to myself, heck, I can load the 7 down to do anything that the .280 can do, but not necessarily the other way around. So, I got the 7 mag. Then, the 7mm STW became popular....:rolleyes: But, anyway, you can parce this thing to death. The .280 is a fine all around north American big game round, for sure, as is the .270. I just like the .284 bullet selection.
 
Maverick....when I got my 7 mag, I was thinkin' about getting a .280. I thought to myself, heck, I can load the 7 down to do anything that the .280 can do, but not necessarily the other way around. So, I got the 7 mag. Then, the 7mm STW became popular...
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Well I suppose you could load that Shooting Times Western to dup. the .280Rem. too, but that is a cavernous case for popping that round out at such humble velocity. The 7mmRM isn't a bad option, but sometimes too much gun is just too much gun no matter how you load it. The big maggies tend to be heavier and have a longer bbl (that isn't always necessary), i'm not saying that is the case (it probably isn't), just that it can be. I too, greatly prefer the 7mm/.284cal. bullet selection, but there is no denying that the .277cal./6.8mm is near indistinguishable for most sporting purposes.

:)
 
The big maggies tend to be heavier and have a longer bbl (that isn't always necessary),
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Well, that's why I got the .308 in a little Remington M7. :D I haven't used that 7 in a while. Really, a .30-30 is more'n enough where I'm hunting in recent years, don't need the range. I have been using a .30-30...in a Contender pistol. It works great inside 200 yards. :D Now, I'm off on this black powder thing. I've never shot anything, but paper with black powder. I'm itchin' to draw blood with it. :D
 
I am going to say read your state laws, and that might help you decide. Where I live you can only take small game with a shotgun, or a rifle of .22 rimfire or less. That leaves out the 30-30 with buckshot over pistol powder, etc.

If you want a good all around rifle a .22 Magnum is a good one, and so is a .22 LR such as a Marlin Model 60. Usually $140, and ammo is cheap, and the gun is deadly accurate. Especially if you add a scope.

A .223 is a great caliber. Low recoil, and will take pigs, deer, and varmint. No, problem. You should be a good shot to take the deer and pigs. I shot to far back or to high, and you will be chasing deer all day and night.

.243 great gun. Does its job well. I think it is a good choice.

.25-06 is a better rifle IMO, and will rock'em/sock'em way out. I own one, and I am biased about it.

.308/.30-06 Not the same. .30-06 has it on .308 IMO, but that is another time/another place. These calibers bit a little more than the mentioned calibers above.

I say read your laws, decide what you want to hunt, or what you need from a rifle. Then shot a few. Most people at a range will let you shoot there rifle if you tell them what you want to shoot it for. Make conversation, and shoot the bull. Then say you were wondering if you might take a round or two because you are interested in purchasing a rifle. I wouldn't mind you taking a round or five from my rifles if you are a honest about your intent, etc...
 
Given the choice of calibers in relation to the game, I might go with a 308 as well. Having hunted feral hogs once with a 30-30, I'd rather err on the side of a bigger caliber.
 
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