Best Self Defense Method..Hand to hand?

[Northslope Nimrod]

I'm interested in taking a martial arts class. However, I don't want anything fancy. I'm looking for the best no-nonsense self defense methods. Any suggestions. The last time I researched this...I stumbled onto KRAV MAGA...the Israeli Fighting Method...used by their military. Anybody know anything about KRAV MAGA? Anybody teach it in Utah?

 

[SunBear]

There's a thread on krav maga about halfway down the page on this forum and a search on krav maga will get you some other threads on this site

 

[JamisJockey]

PM me with your email and I'll forward you the info I got on a Krav Maga place in West Valley, I'm seriously considering going there myself. AFAIK the only other instructor in Utah is in Orem.
Oh, and I've got a thread already started on Krav Maga
Oh and the best self defense H2H is going to be a combination of every style you can learn.

 

[mjb]

Jeet Kune Do, Chin Na, Aikido, Hapkido are all good. They are realistic. You don't go to these particular schools to learn how to kick and punch air. I study Northern Shaolin Kung Fu/Jeet Kune Do, and there I learn how to fight in a realistic setting. If you want to train for a tournament(and not realistic self defense), then I suggest you study Tae Kwon Do, or another martial sport.

 

[proletariat]

Krav Maga is not a be all end all martial art. From what ive seen Krav Maga tends to differ depending on who you take it from. Some places its an aerobic class others its a kill the enemy/terminate with extreme prejudice type military atmosphere. Be carefull with those places because if take that type of attitude to heart you'll be spending the next 15 to 20 making big rocks into little rocks while you guard your cornhole. It also seems as if people are using Krav for more of a marketing tool.
Cross training in different martial arts is the key with sparring and progressive resistance. Without really sparring you will not have the timing to strike and make distance for getting away from a confrontation. Crosstraining helps so you will have a standup/clinch/and ground game.
Anyone will tell you that in a real fight its difficult to kick someone in the balls or poke someones eye. I guess what im trying to say is that if your not in a martial art school where they're not sparring reality based or "alive" as straight blast gym says then you'd better move on because if you try do implement a technique without practicing it real time with your opponent really resisting then your in for a reality check.
One place I recomend is any "straight blast gym" affiliated school. They also have a realistic knife defense system called stab created Karl Tanswell. Its very realistic because the defense starts when your already stabbed and bleeding not when someone is comming at you with a overhead knife stab or an exagerated knife thrust.

BJJ/Muy Thai/Boxing/Greco

 

[MrTuffPaws]

If you are not looking to train at least 2 days a week, every week, then the best thing going is running. Wind sprints. Run away. The martial arts take a lot of commitment before you can defend yourself with them. Best to turn tail and book it.

 

[El Tejon]

North, lots of good stuff around. Focus on finding a good instructor and everything will work out whether its Judo, BJJ, FMA, JMA or CMA, inter alia. Look for someone who stresses realistic training, live sparring (crawl, walk, run), conditioning, dedication and a view that you will not be a holy terror in three easy lessons.

Listen to Paws, you have to put in the time and effort and that won't happen overnight. I wish you well.

 

[aroshi]

As I've studied a number of different arts over the years, as well as taught for a number of years, I have to say that (as already stated) the best plans are to change mind with body and become dedicated to a style that suits you, or improve your overall health, weight-lifting, and aerobic training, especially running abilities.

In any confrontation, there are too many variables to consider. I've taught self-defense classes for over 20 hours based on a single (and very limited) technique to point out that ATTITUDE and AVOIDANCE are the best weapons you have, and they both must be in place before the threat is present.

If you're dedicated, and you want to join a school, and you want to be dedicated... don't search for a school. Search for an instructor or instructors. Meet with them, talk to them, find out what their viewpoints are about different subjects including CCW and the famous "Rules of Engagement." See what they know. Know what they care about.

You will get more from a teacher that you see eye-to-eye with in a limited school / art, than you will from a teacher that you don't agree with in a school that can teach you anything and everything you've ever dreamed of.

I hope this was helpful. I have seen dozens and dozens of students not like a class until they got the chance to hang out and talk with me, then things changed. They either got along with me, or I suggested that they may want to find another teacher that would better suit their needs and views.

Don't be dismayed, and good luck!

 

[TallPine]

None of this sounds very good to me

I would like to learn how to NOT get beat up (or worse) - not pay money to get beat up for practice (maybe it's okay for you young folks)

If I want "conditioning", I can go out and cut firewood or clear brush on my property. I have many years worth of that to do ... spent five hours at it yesterday.

The other thing I have absolutely no use for is the bowing and so forth to the MA instructor, which seems to be pretty much the rule. I ain't bowing to nobody

 

[WT]

I happened to catch the krav maga website and broke out laughing.

There they have a picture of 2 guys wearing white pajamas and black belts. Talk about trying to cash in on the Oriental mystique!

Next we will hear that Bruce Lee was a student.

Most of the km instruction in my local area is carried out in the Korean Take My Dough schools ....... another scam and a half.

 

[Soap]

BJJ/Muy Thai/Boxing/Greco

I would agree with starting at one of those points. All of those stress live sparring and repetition of a few techniques over learning 160 responses to a reverse punch. Find whichever one has the best instructor in your area and go from there. I would also add the very few basic techniques of WWII combatives to that mix.

Krav Maga isn't bad at all but I've noticed the variation on instruction. If the instruction is good, that won't be a bad place to start.

 

[DarkKnight01]

I ain't bowing to nobody

Then your gonna have a hard time finding a place to train, bowing is showing your respect to the teacher, and also to the person your training with, if you dont respect your teacher or the people your training with you arent gonna learn anything besides where the door is.

And remember you do have to sign a release form stating that if you get injured maimed killed etc, there can be no legal reprocussions on the dojo. Or the instructor(s).

So another words show the teacher too much disrespect and you may find yourself in a world of hurt, you have to sign the form to step onto the mat.

Especially if they trained in asia.. they take respect and honor very seriously.

 

[TallPine]

Then your gonna have a hard time finding a place to train

Well then, that may just be the way it is.

They can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Glock Glockler]

Something you might want to keep in mind:

Muay Thai, Brazillian Jujitsu, Boxing, Wrestling, etc are all SPORTS. As Sports they are training you for somthing that is very different than self-defense, though there is a lot of carry-over between the two. A little story: My instructor knew a Judo champion from Japan that came here for a big Judo match, 10 minutes after he gets out of the airport in LA he sees some punk tackle a woman and began beating her. The Judo champion came over and in true Judo fashion grabbed the guy by his shirt to throw him, the problem was that he was wearing a Hawaiian shirt that ripped right off instead of the thick Judo gees they wear in competiton. So the shirt somes right off, the Judo guy doesnt know how to react and before he knows it the punk stabs him in the gut with the knife. A few hours later Judo guy is dead in a the hospital.

If you do sport martial arts, remember the mental boxes that accompany those sports.

Most martial arts train in a nice wide open dojo or gym, and they train you for one on one combat. The problem with that is that fights are seldom in those ideal places and they are almost never one on one. Wrestling in a fight is extremely dangerous because you are essentially seeking to physically overpower the other person, but the problem is that all the while you are wrestling with him his buddy will probably come up behind you and stab you in the back. Wrestling and BJJ are great when you're in a controlled environment where no one has weapons, there is a ref to oversee the rules, it's one on one, and it's on a cushened mat.

Does a particular teacher or style train you for dealing with multiple opponents?

Does it teach you how to defend yourself in places like a stairwell, crowded bar, on ice, or in water?

Does it teach you how to defend against knives, sticks, and guns?

The other thing to keep in mind is to avoid getting hung up on a particular style, as these are boxes that will confine your thinking. There exists a universal scientific truth of combat which one finds in physics, anatomy, and biomechanics. If something is a sound concept it should apply accross the board in whatever you're doing, regardless of the style. Keep looking for what works and also why it works and you will be on the right path, these are things for you to learn and not necessarily for your instructor to teach you.

I hope that helps, good luck.

PS There is a big difference between true Krav Maga created by Imi Lichtenfeld and the watered down stuff that is presented in many of the videos out there. Real Krav does not have the punches to the face that Pop Maga has (popular Maga) and it certainly doesnt have the high kicks. So, in the order of operations that will determine your success the factors are you, your instructor, and lastly your system.

 

[AF_INT1N0]

I'm Bob and I take Krav Maga. [All voices] Hi Bob [All voices/]

Actually I like the class alot. For one while we do have the self defense mentality we also go through the legal aspects of self defense. ie. where you cease to become the defender and become the attacker in the eyes of the law.

All instructors teach the book. Of course your going to have variations between teachers. This is universal, all teachers will teach their strengths, and all teachers will enjoy teaching different tactics and strategies.

One thing I do like about the class is that I got the first month free to be able to make the decision as to whether or not Krav was for me.

Another is that we don't train with the classic one on one, it emphasized over and over in my class that while your kickin someones butt his buddies are likely getting ready to kick yours.

But everyone has their preferences, and everyone has a style that suits them.

 

[Spencer Stewart]

Training alive...

Hello all,

I will second proletariat's recommendation of a Straight Blast Gym affiliated school. Matt Thornton has explained the concept of "Aliveness" very thoroughly on his website www.straightblastgym.com so I will refrain from doing so here. Matt has a very critical and successful approach to "combat athletics" which is very worth checking out.

Tall Pine, you might even enjoy his approach due to the fact that there is no bowing, no katas/forms, or anything resembling traditional martial arts. THis is not to say that respect is not given or recieved, but rather in a different form...on the mat. Yes, it is athletic and very physical, however, Matt has a large variety of age groups training in his gym and affiliated gyms all over the world...it is not just for us younger guys .

Anyway, enjoy perusing the thoughts presented at Straight Blast Gym.

SPencer

 

[Risasi]

Bah...

Though some of this is helpful, it's about as helpful as slowfiring 50 ft targets at the range, and basing that as your handgun self defense practice. Sorry if you never rapid fired your gun, in a gunfight you are going to have the average hit ratio at 20ft or less (I believe it's something like 15%).

The best practice for a street fight IS a street fight (and surviving). The second best form of practice for a street fight is not <insert martial art here>, nope it's wits. It's not getting into that fight, and if you are in that fight it is completely messing that guy up as bad as you can because you better have a state of mind that you are GOING TO DIE. Take him with you. If I am in fear for my life I will be swinging and throwing everything I can lay my hands on. How about that Mr. do-fu guy? You ever practice your martial arts, you unarmed against some guy with weapons (Okay, there are exceptions)? And how about makeshift weapons? A piece of chain, and bicycle rim. Someone throwing apples at you (don't ask)? Whatever is at hand will be thrown at you with the utmost rage. If you are in a self defense scenario you can be sure the bad guy is going to be armed, he's going to be in numbers. No, most self defense crap is stupid. Your best bet is beating a hasty retreat, and if you can't, prepare for death and take as many as you can with you.

Perhaps that doesn't sound nice or civilized. Sorry hand to hand is animal mentality with wits. I hate to sound cliched but if you use some rigid style it is easily defeated. Better to have no style or many styles, and total rage at the guy messing with you.

Still, overall, the best form of martial arts is "don't put yourself in that scenario-fu"....oh yeah, and travel in groups, always.

 

[ARH]

A little story: My instructor knew a Judo champion from Japan that came here for a big Judo match, 10 minutes after he gets out of the airport in LA he sees some punk tackle a woman and began beating her. The Judo champion came over and in true Judo fashion grabbed the guy by his shirt to throw him, the problem was that he was wearing a Hawaiian shirt that ripped right off instead of the thick Judo gees they wear in competiton. So the shirt somes right off, the Judo guy doesnt know how to react and before he knows it the punk stabs him in the gut with the knife. A few hours later Judo guy is dead in a the hospital.

I'll call bull???? on this one.

Who was the "Judo champion"? This sounds a lot like the apparent BJJ black belt who had a training knife pulled on him just seconds before he was going for the arm lock.

You don't become a Judo champion and not work out how the throws work without the use of a gi to hold onto. The mere suggestion of it is just stupid!

Sounds like another of these internet fantacies someone created to rationalise why they are training in the realultimate fighting system and everything else is just crap.

 

[junke]

if you realy want to put in the time for a martial arts class of any discipline fantastic, but you must understand that you will have to put in a substantial amount of time befroe even considering trying to use these things in a real world siuation. most "street fights" last only a couple minutes mostly because the individals are completely exhausted after wrestling for more than a couple minutes. conditioning is every bit 50% of any fight. i have trained in numerous martial arts as well as boxing and wrestling. most fights end up on the ground. and discaplines such as grappling are the most useful in the shortest period of time. if you want to train for a fight you need to fight. punching or kicking a bag IS NOT going to teach you to fight. live sparing is irreplaceable. you really need to be able to think when the fur is flying and unless you have practiced in that condtion your not going to be able to think in a real world fight. i have come across numerous high level belts that would likely get there ass' kicked in a real fight becuase all they have ever practiced at is half speed or on bag that doesnt punch back. you dont learn to ride a bike by riding a stationary bike at the health club. thinking about how NOT to get into the fight is far and away the fastest way to survive a fight. good luck hi ya, hi ya, hi ya :banghead:

 

[pax]

Great advice about martial arts is available from Marc MacYoung's website, www.nononsenseselfdefense.com

pax

 

[Risasi]

Junke,

Well put. And you can bring a reasonably good voice to the table as you have background in multiple styles of fighting. While I am not into any structured martial art, I have sparred with many different kinds of fighters. So I see this from the other side of the mirror.

Take heed guys. If you are a gunman you are better served learning how to NOT fight hand to hand, merely avoidance so you can get to your gun.

Look, I've been in street fights. Not many, but enough. I wised up. I plan to avoid hand to hand at all costs. I'll unbalance the playing field as fast as I can by grabbing any weapon. Technique can overcome skill, but at what price? Look I'll not get delusional. I'm 5'6" and 170. And no real fat to speak of. Nonetheless I do not want to fight the 6'2" 225 pounder, (or the 300lb fatso. These guys are tough too, just wear out quicker (usually) Heck yeah I'll give you guys props).

Anyway, I've broken my collarbone, and I've been knifed. I've also taken an 8 foot fall straight on my back. I've got two vertebrae that are damaged and pretty much fused together.

I've also got a bad knee. Look all of this was from stupid stuff I could have avoided. AND because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nonetheless I can get around, and I keep my body in reasonably good shape, but likewise what is it Clint said; "A man's got to know his limitations". And I know I'm gonna feel it later in life. I'll be hitting the forty mark before I know it and I'm starting to dread it.

Okay, so I've beat the 230lb football player. What's that prove? Nothing really. That sure doesn't mean I want to fight the next one, or that I would beat him. Each fight I've been in has worn me down. My deal is I can just take more pain than the next guy. Let me tell you something, you are better served trying to figure out how not to get in this situation than to practice the latest greatest "kick some byoo-ttocks fu".

Let's see how does it go:

God created all men, Sam Colt made them equal.

And:

Age and cunning (or treachery) generally defeat youth and skill.

And I'll leave you tonight on that note.

[Edit]: Pax good link, there is some useful stuff here.

 

[Risasi]

Okay, okay I said I was going to bed. Thanks Pax, for the wonderful link.

Anyway I ran across another link that isn't half bad:

http://www.donrearic.com/

Okay, now I really am going to bed...good night Gracie.

 

[Soap]

Risasi- I'm on the same wavelength as you except for one thing. Are you suggesting to not train at all?

 

[Risasi]

Hi Daniel,

The short answer - yes, maybe. Bad teaching is worse than no teaching. If you are looking at some martial art for sport, to "find yourself", or just 'cause. That's all fine and well. But don't expect this to necessarily help you in a real fight. In fact it may hinder you, and it also might give you a false sense of security.

Whereas if you don't know anything about hand to hand fighting you will err on the side of caution and try to AVOID a fight, rather than meet one where the deck may be stacked against you. There are many stories of people instinctively reacting to a threatening situation, both armed and unarmed. And doing incredible things. Heck I'd rather be graced and come out on top than skilled and dead. The human body is a pretty weird and marvelous thing.

Again this is kind of like the analogy I gave of training with paper punching targets, and nothing else. Just because you can pop 10 out of 10 into the black at 25 yards with your pistol doesn't mean that much. You can take your time, and more importantly the target isn't shooting back at you. So really I am saying the same applies to defensive pistol craft. Hardly suitable for defensive use don't you think?

As for training for a real fight, there is a whole new level of mentality involved. You have to be immediately ready to kill that guy in front of you. You have to be vicious. You have to change how the deck is stacked. You have to "cheat". Because the other guy surely will. It means winning at all costs, and willing to take a life if need be, (but it should be in light of trying to escape). If you can't handle the thought of you using lethal force you have no business doing anything other than handing over your wallet...and hoping for the best. That's why I'm death on play fighting.

 

[Ktulu]

I'm looking for the best no-nonsense self defense methods.

There may be no answer to the question, "Which system is the best," and if there is, you certainly wont find it on an internet message board. What you'll get is 150 different opinions on what people think the best system is. These opinions are biased in the least and flat out wrong or lies at the very worst. Anyone who says something is the best system is deluded or dishonest. There is simply no best system for every situation, competition, or scenario.

Glock Glockler makes a very important point. Your priorities should be: your commitment, your instructor, and lastly your system. There are tons of systems out there that can be made to work if your commitment is high enough and your instruction is good enough. There are very few systems that work well with little or no commitment and/or instruction.

For the most part it's the practitioner and NOT the system.