Best Semi-Auto 30-06?

Status
Not open for further replies.
GooseGestapo said:
Given how expensive and hard to find a new op rod is, I’d pass on commercial ammo.

Even some military ball is suspect. Much of the late manufactured Lake city M2, (that on linked belts for .30cal machine guns) was loaded with a spherical powder approximating the burn rate of Winchester 760 (H414). This has been Linked to some bent op rods. A lot of this ammo was delinked and sold reboxed at Gun shows through the years. My older brother bent the op rod on his (now mine) M1 back in the mid’80’s. Fortunately he was able to get another one installed by an old school gunsmith in Great Falls, Montana. He’d bought the gun from another match competitor who had previously rebarreled the gun ( a Blue Sky import). I was warned about the ammo, which he gave me to shoot up through my bolt guns. I did! Chrono’d they ran 2,870fps from a 24” MkX Mauser. Hotter than most factory 168’s. They weighed 173gr... Vietnam era (‘72 LC) machine gun ammo.

Considering a gas valve cost $40 +/-, and an op rod $400+/-, I’d get a valve if stuck shooting factory ammo. Creedmoor sports loads and sells Garand safe ammo of various weights and grades at competitive prices.

Again, it’s the pressure curve and port pressure that is critical for the Garand. Powder as slow a H4831 (perhaps biggest offender in bent rods) produce as much as 2x the port pressure of IMR/H4895, which approximate the original powder for M1 ball.

Varget and Reloader15 are the slowest powders I’ll use in my M1’s.
With Reloader17 I can get an additional 200+fps from my bolts, but make sure the ammo is easily identified and don’t get near the Garands.
With factory ammo, you don’t know what you’re getting.
Click to expand...
Considering a large part of your quoted comment is flat untrue .. THIS is why it's so hard to beat back the vs M2 ball only myth when people like you post utter BS.

There has been no linking of late M2 ball to bent oprods.

LC 72 has been tested by hp white labs and met all specs for M2 ball ammo. They weighed 150grn not 173grn..and there is no such thing as machine gun ammo. 2870fps is fine for that load.

You don't even know what an adjustable gas cylinder lock screw is...not some sort of "valve".

Oprods aren't hard to find or expensive...they can be found for around $100 or so.

No one should be reloading with 4831 for the garand.

4895 was NOT the original powder for M1 ball.. it was imr 1185 mostly.

Factory ammo has been tested and it's very similar to milsurp ammo. So no worries there.
 
Garandimal said:
THIS... should be your Guide.



As both the 150 gr. and 180 gr. Core-Lokt are loaded to M2 Ball pressures?

... would extrapolate that the 165 gr. Core-Lokt would be as well.



​
GR
Click to expand...
M2 ball "pressure" is a red herring...that isn't even a criteria for determining what's safe or not.

Don't forget that webpage is using their test data to convince you that you need their product.

Some of their test data is suspect and doesn't match with Springfield test data.

Buyer beware
 
Jeremy2171 said:
M2 ball "pressure" is a red herring...that isn't even a criteria for determining what's safe or not.

Don't forget that webpage is using their test data to convince you that you need their product.

Some of their test data is suspect and doesn't match with Springfield test data.

Buyer beware
Click to expand...

Of what, exactly?

Just simple Physics.


Check out his test rig.

Far in excess of 1930's Springfield Armory equipment.

And he tests All the rounds, including the M2 Ball, on the same equipment.


The M1 - is a robust Battle Rifle.

The webpage is simply stating empirical data - that shows that, with certain rounds/loads, "Peak/Area under the Curve" pressures exceed M2 spec., therefore Op-rod energy will as well.


Beretta - developed the "Low-compression head" gas lock screw for their (re-designed M1 Rifle) BM59.

GarandGear - makes that available (if needed) for the M1 Rifle.




GR
 
Last edited:
Garandimal said:
Of what, exactly?

Your unsubstantiated Phobia?


The webpage is simply stating empirical data - that shows that, with certain rounds/loads, "Peak Pressure/Area under the Curve" pressure exceeds M2 spec., therefore Op-rod energy will as well.


Beretta - developed the "Low-compression head" gas lock screw for their (re-designed M1 Rifle) BM59.

GarandGear - makes that available (if needed) for the M1 Rifle.




GR
Click to expand...
No phobia....just presenting facts.

Their data only shows pressure in the gas cylinder...and their data doesn't match up with Springfield armory testing.

The data they present only represents what happens before the oprod moves. The bullet has already left the barrel and gas pressure is already decreasing.. since the garand is a lossy gas system higher pressure gas leaves even faster.

One way to see that commercial ammo isn't a danger is by comparing oprod velocity.

When you do that you see that commercial and milsurp ammo move the oprod at similar velocity.

Therefore operating pressure is similar.

The reason that Beretta designed their lock screw is because the gas port is much closer to the chamber and the pressure is higher. If the gas port was the same distance as a full size garand they wouldn't have changed anything except to make the gas port hole larger to makeup for the less gas volume of the 7.62.

Not too mention their test has several inconsistencies....

Remember those who are selling you a product are also showing you their data on why you need their product....


Marketing...
 
Jeremy2171 said:
No phobia....just presenting facts.

Their data only shows pressure in the gas cylinder...and their data doesn't match up with Springfield armory testing.

The data they present only represents what happens before the oprod moves. The bullet has already left the barrel and gas pressure is already decreasing.. since the garand is a lossy gas system higher pressure gas leaves even faster.

One way to see that commercial ammo isn't a danger is by comparing oprod velocity.

When you do that you see that commercial and milsurp ammo move the oprod at similar velocity.

Therefore operating pressure is similar.

The reason that Beretta designed their lock screw is because the gas port is much closer to the chamber and the pressure is higher. If the gas port was the same distance as a full size garand they wouldn't have changed anything except to make the gas port hole larger to makeup for the less gas volume of the 7.62.

Not too mention their test has several inconsistencies....

Remember those who are selling you a product are also showing you their data on why you need their product....


Marketing...
Click to expand...

Did Springfield Armory use a digital high-speed pressure transducer in the 1930's?

And again, All rounds, including M2, are tested on the same equipment.


What makes the Op-rod move?

Gas Pressure.

Only.

Variables - are the same per rifle w/ any given load.

If - the Peak/Total pressures are the same (or less) than M2 spec., the rifle won't know the difference.

Peak pressure - determines Op-rod stress.
Total pressure - determines Op-rod speed.

Taking one index out of context, and making it critical... is religious.

Stress - bends Op-rods... not speed.




GR
 
Garandimal said:
Did Springfield Armory use a digital high-speed pressure transducer in the 1930's?

And again, All rounds, including M2, are tested on the same equipment.


What makes the Op-rod move?

Gas Pressure.

Only.

Variables - are the same per rifle w/ any given load.

If - the Peak/Total pressures are the same (or less) than M2 spec., the rifle won't know the difference.

Peak pressure - determines Op-rod stress.
Total pressure - determines Op-rod speed.

Taking one index out of context, and making it critical... is religious.

Stress - bends Op-rods... not speed.




GR
Click to expand...
Now you are thinking...

Actually I'm talking about tests springfield did in the mid 60s since M2 didn't exist when the garand was designed and didn't get adopted until after the garand was already in service.

Now let's talk about the "stress". When does the stress occur and how is it applied?
 
Garandimal said:
Impulse - will determine Stress.

And that will be driven by Peak pressure.

Total pressure (area under the curve) will drive velocity.


IF you possess an Engineering mind - suggest you Read the GarandGear Testing Hardware and Gas Cycle literature.




GR
Click to expand...
I've read it..thats why I'm pointing out the inconsistencies in their data collection and presentation...they tested some of the weaker M2 ball out there. Plus they say the gas cylinder pressure is close to 1100psi...the Govt says it's twice that... So something is wrong for them to be that far off...

So we are back to this.... "Total pressure (area under the curve) will drive velocity." that means if the oprod/bolt velocity is similar then the pressure under the curve is similar...

Right?
 
There is made a gas plug that slips into an M1 that allows different ammunition to be shoot.

If the conversation included “semi-automtic .30-06 rifle” and the word “best” the argument is nonsense unless it also includes “M1 Garand”.
 
Jeremy2171 said:
It's not a gas plug and it's not needed as testing has shown.
Click to expand...

You are obviously a disciple of the Church of the Speeding Op-rod.

Which is irrelevant, because Peak pressure stresses Op-rods.

... and the "Ported Gas Screw" significantly reduces that, as indicated.


It also reshapes the area under the curve, but does little to diminish it - as it is an extraneous issue.

That's why All the ammo continues to function properly with it.

An elegant solution.


If you are concerned w/ Op-rod speeds... get a Schuster venting lock screw.

If, however, your concern is either:

1. Permissible Commercial Ammo - check the Data.
or
2. Remediation of "Hot" desirable ammo - Both the "Ported Gas Screw" or Schuster venting lock screw will resolve it.




GR
 
Last edited:
We are back to the oprod isn't speeding....

If it's moving the same speed with commercial ammo as it is with milsurp ammo then the pressure is the same.


I'm still waiting on proof of how the oprod is "stressed".

But let's not forget they only used weaker ammo while M2 that's "hotter" wasn't tested.... I wonder why...
 
Jeremy2171 said:
We are back to the oprod isn't speeding....

If it's moving the same speed with commercial ammo as it is with milsurp ammo then the pressure is the same.


I'm still waiting on proof of how the oprod is "stressed".

But let's not forget they only used weaker ammo while M2 that's "hotter" wasn't tested.... I wonder why...
Click to expand...

You are obfuscating.

... and extremely careless in your research of the GarandGear Commercial Ammunition page.


As stated, ad nauseam - Area under the Curve determines Op-rod speed - and that the "Ported Gas Screw" does not address that irrelevant point.

It addresses Peak pressure - where forces exceed M2 Ball.

... and determining acceptable Commercial Ammo along the way.


As for "hotter" ammo?

There are several in his data, Fiocchi being one of them.




GR
 
Garandimal said:
You are obfuscating.

... and extremely careless in your research of the GarandGear Commercial Ammunition page.


As stated, ad nauseam - Area under the Curve determines Op-rod speed - and that the "Ported Gas Screw" does not address that irrelevant point.

It addresses Peak pressure - where forces exceed M2 Ball.

... and determining acceptable Commercial Ammo along the way.


As for "hotter" ammo?

There are several in his data, Fiocchi being one of them.




GR
Click to expand...
Not true at all...

AS stated ad nauseam they didn't test any of the "hotter" M2 ball ammo..they tested the "weaker" loads to support their claim... that is what I've been saying..

I've also said that their tests don't come close to Springfield Armorys results.

I've also asked you to explain how the "peak" pressure stresses the rod...at what point does the rod get "stressed" and where...
 
I’d rely on CMP to answer about op rods, gas plugs, and non m2 ball suitability. They are the largest and best trained gunsmiths on the US Rifle Caliber 30 M1 around today. All of the armorers etc from Springfield Armory are long since gone, seeing as how the Armory was closed 52 years ago. If CMP gives it a go ahead believe it, if no go believe that. Nuff said
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

zaitcev
  • Locked
Vepr 30-06
Replies
7
Views
2K
zaitcev
zaitcev
K
  • Locked
  • Poll
Best WWII Semi-Auto
2
Replies
29
Views
2K
Kalashnikov
K
C
  • Locked
best 30-06 semi-autos?
2 3
Replies
50
Views
3K
twoblink
T
C
  • Locked
Best semi-auto 30-06 rifle
2
Replies
39
Views
15K
PurpleProwess
P
P
  • Locked
Semi 30-06
Replies
17
Views
1K
CoRoMo
CoRoMo
Back
Top