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Better understanding an anti (my brother in this case)

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by .cheese., Jan 24, 2008.

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  1. .cheese.

    .cheese. Member

    Feb 13, 2007
    I've made some observations that may be interesting to some here.

    My brother is an interesting individual. On one hand, he's very intelligent, has a massive vocabularly, top-notch writing skills, is very socially involved, and attends one of the top universities in the country. He happens to also be liberal (extremely so), atheist (raised Jewish - not that his being atheist is important, but it fits an existing stereotype), and very anti-gun.

    He has been living in San Fran for several years now and is now home to take a semester off to study for the LSAT.

    Last time he was home, he got into a massive argument with me over my purchasing at the time an AR15.

    He has never actually seen either of my ARs since then.

    The argument was so massive that it went into other areas unrelated to guns that were very personal and we both left things on very bad terms and didn't speak for 6 months.

    Now that he's home, things are definitely strained again now since we're both in our parents' home. He's taking the semester off to take the LSAT, and I just took the LSAT and am waiting to hear back from law schools about whether I got in or not. I moved in with my folks to save some cash in the meantime as school is expensive as you all know.

    Now to the meat and potatoes of my points.

    The other night he mentioned in the car that he didn't trust the police to protect him. I told him that while I imagine most have good intentions, I don't trust the police either to protect me. I pointed out that it is interesting that we both are aware of the same problem, yet we respond very differently. He does nothing, while I actively carry to protect myself. He said, "Carrying a weapon implies that you feel you need to protect yourself from somebody." - to which I replied, "Not somebody in particular, but I do feel it is wise to be ready in case I should need to protect myself from somebody. The potential is there for the need to arise." He told me he disagreed and never feels that he is in any danger.

    I dropped the point right there to avoid getting into another big argument, but took note of this interesting point. I had never thought of this being a potential argument, as flawed as it is. Anybody who watches the news enough, reads the paper, or just plain gets around enough that they see things happen knows that bad stuff happens.... and some of it is REALLY bad! To think that nothing happens is naive to say the least. In fact when I asked my mother if she felt the same way the other day, she told me she did. She later came home to exclaim that she had witnessed a carjacking that day. Needless to say, she changed her mind.

    This is just an interesting note to take. I don't think enough Xanax exists in the world to make me feel 100% comfortable all day long like that as though there is NO chance anything could ever happen. I thought about this for a little while and just how odd it is. No wonder he feels it is absurd to have guns, because to him anybody who has a gun isn't protecting themselves from anybody (as there is nobody to protect themselves from), but rather they/we are the problem itself.

    The second thing that I took notice of was that he handed me that Fred Grimm article from the Miami Herald the other day (search THR for a copy). He skimmed it and thought I'd agree. I obviously didn't. Somehow in our talking about the issue, he mentioned that AK47s are illegal. I told him that this was pure BS, and I could buy one quite easily, and almost did several months ago, it's newly manufactured or converted fully automatic AKs that are illegal, and that you can even buy fully automatic guns still legally with a tax stamp.

    The third thing I have noticed is that when it comes to these issues, he refuses to hear facts. When I point him in the direction of factual information, he says that he doesn't care..... which obviously is not true given his strong anti position on this. You can't hate something so much, and not care about it at the same time. I think it's that he, along with many other antis, subconsciously doesn't want to hear the facts because if they knew them, and continued to spout falsities, they would transition from being simply naive as to the facts, to lying.

    The last thing I think is interesting, is that on his LSAT prep, he has an odd weak point. My cousin and myself both were very strong (at least in prep) with our logical reasoning sections. I am very pro-gun, and my cousin is pro-gun with borderline opinions on certain gun related topics that often go the way of pro-gunners when he hears both sides of the argument finally.

    My brother on the other hand is struggling with the logical reasoning section. From what I understand, for somebody to have such strong verbal and writing ability as he has, and yet be so weak on the logical reasoning section of the LSAT, is unusual. Upon talking to him about it (he consults me b/c it was my strong section), it seems his primary issue is actually in understanding the logic involved, or the progression of the argument.

    Questions that he has particular trouble with are "Method of argument" questions - "Point at issue" questions (odd)... anything with formal logic.... "Assumption" questions (big time), and perhaps as bad as anything with formal logic are "paradox" questions.

    This may mean nothing at all..... I will grant him that because he is a better test taker, he will still likely end up with a better score on test day than I got.

    I just thought these points were worthy of noting and decided to post them. Maybe it can help understand some of the disconnects that exist between us and the antis. Maybe not.
  2. larry_minn

    larry_minn Member

    Jan 1, 2003
    If he refuses to look at facts shown in a simple format............

    Lets just say he is your brother.
  3. IdaReggaeMon

    IdaReggaeMon Member

    Dec 2, 2007
    Boise, Idaho
    It's interesting that you two could be brothers. Usually, when someone speaks of a close family member who holds such opposite views towards guns, they speak of their brother in-law.

    In any case, I think you should offer to take him shooting to take his mind off his studies for a few hours. This could break the ice and lead to a deeper discussion which would allow you both to understand the other's point of view better.
  4. Just Jim

    Just Jim Member

    Mar 27, 2006
    Not every person is born to be logical. Matter of fact few people can develope those skills and it is obvious by our politicions. We are all different.

    In the animal world those who won't fight get eaten. Well in mans world your not going to get eaten but you can be murdered. Is it natural selection that keeps a man where he won't learn to defend himself? The strong do survive but it takes a smart person too.

    Maybe that is the link with your brother. Could be by natures selection he just can't piece things together to save his own life should it come to that. The history books are full of the millions that died without lifting a finger in their own defense in WWII.

    Some people will never carry a gun even if it kills them to do without one. They won't learn to defend themselves and depend on others for their safety. It is their choice to live like that, but it pains me they want the rest of us to live like the fools they are.

    No offense intended of course

  5. Deamon

    Deamon Member

    Oct 8, 2007
    I think you pointed out a problem with a lot of anti's. They are intelligent but are in dear lacking of logic. They see theres a problem and come up with one solution and do their best to get it implemented without thinking of the effects it will actually have versus what they intend it to have.

    Anti's want to make the world a safer place to live, they do this by believing that if you take guns away from people or make registration etc etc that EVERYONE will abide by the knew rules.

    The problem is they don't think through enough to realise that Cornholio Crackhead who doesn't care about anything the government tells him to do. And won't register or hand over or anything like that. They fail to realise that the only people who would turn in guns, would be law abiding people because they don't want to be criminals.

    And even in a hypothetical situation where every last gun was collected and destroyed within the border of the US, illegal guns would flow in. And because at this point criminals would be going for broke to get guns, they would worry about things like semiautomatic versus automatic. I garantee those 20$ AKs you hear about in Afganistan and Pakistan would flood our streets in no time. Through the Gulf, through the borders. All along the same routes that all the coke comes in.

    This isn't England, we aren't a country the size of Illinois (?), America is massive. Thousands upon thousands of miles of border, uncountable hiding locations for drugs, weapons, and ammunition.

    And then if you were to close the borders completely. Steel is plentiful, tubing, springs, angle iron, lead, charcoal, saltpeter, sulfur, fulminate. You give any moderately intelligent person one week with the right knowledge. And they'll have a gun for next to nothing.

    It's an impossible task. There will ALWAYS be guns. The best we can hope for is to have them too. So when Cornholio Crackhead kicks in your door looking for cash for his fix sticking a junkyard special zip gun to your head, you've got something better than Dial-a-Prayer.
  6. Big Boomer

    Big Boomer Member

    Aug 14, 2007
    Well, I don't know what to tell you about your brother; however, I can easily foresee who will be making partner first ;)

    A lawyer that can't argue logically is like an unloaded gun, purely a paperweight.
  7. chris in va

    chris in va Member

    Mar 4, 2005
    Louisville KY
    That's an amazing way to look at it. They don't see there's a threat, so anyone carrying suddenly becomes the threat. Hmm.

    BTW anti's that refuse to even try out a firearm base their thought processes on feelings, not facts. Someone on here pointed out any discussions with an anti should be emotionally based.

    Example. Instead of "2.5 million crimes are thwarted yearly by firearms", say "Last week an old lady was getting out of her car at WalMart to buy what groceries she could with her meager SS check and a drugged out junkie slashed her with a kitchen knife trying to steal what little money she had left from her heating bills. The guy is still at large, roaming the streets as we speak."

    See? It's all how you present it.:scrutiny:

    BTW I didn't entirely make that up. In my town we've had a couple holdups, one in the WM parking lot.
  8. mike101

    mike101 Member

    Jul 12, 2006
    SOUTH Jersey
    Your brother sounds like a Brady Campaigner waiting to happen. They don't care about facts either. Nor do they deal in logic (this allows them to disregard facts). When all else fails, they just lie.
  9. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Dec 24, 2002
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    Some people persuade themselves it can't happen to them. The predators count on that attitude.
  10. SDC

    SDC Member

    Jan 8, 2003
    People's Republic of Canada
    No more than owning a fire extinguisher implies that you think someone is trying to set fire to your home; it is merely a reasonable precaution to take.
  11. critter

    critter Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    southeast AR
    Several of you have made a point that I discovered a long time ago. I am a former educator (retired back when school was school!). There are three types of folks. There are (1) logical folks, (2) illogical folks-who use FLAWED logic, and (3) A-logical folks-who do not use, can not use and do not even understand what logic is nor can they recognize it.

    Logical folks are most of us.
    Illogical folks CAN be 'fixed' by feeding them correct facts and by pointing out and fixing their flawed logic.
    A-logical folks are the ones for which the term "don't try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and annoy the pig". They ARE NOT FIXABLE. They do not understand logic, can not learn it, won't try and never get over it. In a 'logical' discussion, they resort to LOUD TALKING, LOTS of talking, tears and emotion, nasty names, sulling up, putting down the character of their opponents, etc. DO NOT waste your time with them! There is no cure!
  12. oldgold

    oldgold Member

    Mar 31, 2004
    Interesting. You have a good point that I just never put together. I've got two sisters who are both ant's. Both are very intelligent but neither one has any logic abilities. Growing up games and puzzles that required logic were a mystery to them.

    It always baffled me that they are so anti when we all grew up on the farm where guns and hunting were normal. Now I think I see why. I gotta go think this out.....logically.
  13. chieftain

    chieftain Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    The Free State of Arizona
    My father who was a Mechanical Engineer, plant manager, head of manufacturing for Computer peripherals in the early 50's through the late 80's, used to say:

    Many people are simply, "Unprejudiced by Facts."

    Go figure.

  14. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

    Mar 30, 2006
    Rocky River, Ohio
    You might want to point out the latest news on the family in Connecticut who were slaughtered recently by home invaders. Apparently, the cops sat in front of the house, waiting for a SWAT team, while the family was being burned to death (minus the father, who survived).

    I have a basic principle in life: If you can't or won't defend yourself, it's unlikely that anyone else will defend you. The intentions of the police are a crapshoot, depending upon where you live. Their actual abilities are pretty consistent. It's pretty much a 100% certainty that they're not going to respond quickly enough to save you from an immediately life threatening attack, no matter how much they want to.
  15. XDKingslayer

    XDKingslayer member

    Mar 1, 2006
    Port Charlotte, Fl.
    I don't think it's unusual at all.

    A lot of book smart people don't have a drop of common sense. The logical reasoning part of the LSAT is just that, common sense.

    His brain works different. To solve a problem he has to have all the information in order to solve that problem. People with common sense don't. That's exactly why he doesn't agree with you on self defence even though you both agree the police can't protect you.

    Your common sense and logical reasoning says it could happen. His booksmart brain won't register it until it happens to him.

    That's also why he's a better test taker. His brain can retain the information better because it doesn't question it. It simply records it. The information exists simply because the book said so. Your brain on the other hand questions, suspects, and processes everything that comes in and stuff gets lost on the way. It's too busy drawing the line and understanding the route from A to B, how A and B came to exist, and understanding the relationship between A and B, while his brain simply acknowledges A and B because the book said so.
  16. RoadkingLarry

    RoadkingLarry Member

    Jun 14, 2007
    NE Oklahoma
    So, can we boil this down to - Antis have a mental abberation?

  17. longrifleman

    longrifleman Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    western Missouri
    I've seen "limited" success using analogies to get people started thinking. Does your brother carry jumper cables, tow ropes, first aid kit, flashlight in his car? Any kind of insurance? Does he keep cash on hand? (Probably not, if he is a college student:D.)

    I hope your brother is capable of learning by observing other people, and doesn't learn the lesson the hard way. Unfortunately it could be the last lesson he learns.
  18. Marlin 45 carbine

    Marlin 45 carbine Member

    Jul 15, 2007
    South-Western North Carolina
    interesting post and I'm compelled to add to it since I have 5 sisters. my mom (now 85) was an active deer hunter with my dad and owned a Marlin 30-30 (took several good bucks also) so my sisters grew up in a hunting home but never participated.
    the oldest has the opinion that handguns are sort of a 'neccesary evil' and is pretty much 'anti-assault weapon' despite my attempts to convince her to the contrary.
    next older unfortunately is very good friends with who else but Wayne LaPiere's ex. altho her friend has never really railed against Wayne evidently he is fairly prominent on her (both of them) list of *&%@ subjects. my sis isn't really anti-hunting and enjoys venison I supply but she is definitely anti-pistol and 'AW'.
    next older - surprise - married a fairly active hunter who was a former Navy career P.O. and when he was stationed in Europe she came in second there in the women's shotgun disicpline of some sort, can't recollect what. she has a caseful of trophies. she's non-commental on pistols and 'AW's' but is strongly supportive of hunting and the guns involved in such even pistols and also any target guns pistols included. no longer shoots due to severe arthritis.
    next younger is pretty much an 'anti' even tho she devours the venison I supply w/gusto and enjoys plinking with my .22 revolver. just won't listen to reason about S-D pistols and 'AW's'. she's a grad of a liberal college and has no friends either male or female involved in shooting sports. 2 of the 3 daughters are anti's - one very much so.
    youngest is admin in a liberal college and somewhat 'anti' but has enjoyed plinking with my .22 revolver and even bought herself a nice .25 auto 'just in case'. her son is a grad of said college and is pretty much pro-gun, has .22 rifle and .20 ga. still she supports 'anti' politicians and is suspicious of 'AW's' and S-D pistols. fairly supportive of hunters and again enjoys venison and turkey I supply.
    I guess I should make a point and say that despite the upbringing in a fairly active-hunting home this does not make a gaurantee of pro-2nd amend views. surprising that one of the 'anti's' should enjoy plinking w/my .22 revolver and hold such views tho.
  19. Dorryn

    Dorryn Member

    Oct 18, 2006
    Buffalo, NY
    If you never feel in danger then you dont need cops.
  20. LT1coupe

    LT1coupe Member

    May 31, 2006
    Something I was sent:

    Forgive me, for I have sinned.
    An About Face After Being Saved by a Gun Owner

    a letter to the editor
    mailed to
    www.keepandbeararms.comI am one of those people who you loathe. One of those invisible people who come into your living room without asking your permission. One of those people who follow you while you shop, and make it harder for you to make legal purchases. One of those people who try and tell you how to raise your children, as if you don't know how. One of those who gives ratings to stations that promote our demise as a free nation. I am your enemy. Or at least I was.

    I followed it all, all of the propaganda, all of the hoopla. Believed it too. Believed that leaving my house was more dangerous than being in a war. At any given moment one of you evil gun owners would open fire on me. I saw the NRA stickers, the Gun owners of America stickers on the cars that passed, and I thought you were all fools. I did everything in my power financially to try and help more laws pass that would prevent you from owning guns. I wholeheartedly believed that only the Police, and Military should have guns. Every time I heard of a gang shooting, or other criminal act committed with a gun, I honestly believed that if we could curtail the legal sale of guns, we could make a difference.

    Boy was I wrong.

    I have children, three actually, and to me the only thing more important than raising them properly, was seeing that they aren't hurt in anyway. I wanted to ban guns, save my children, save all children. No child should have to be part of any kind of death, especially the kind that involves being shot. I gave money to all of the anti gun organizations I could think of, went to the "Million" Mom March, even looked at Rosie when she spoke, and actually admire her. Brought the kids as well, and even yelled some not so nice things to those other marchers. I'm sure some of you know who I refer to.

    I was on my way back from the march, on my way back to Connecticut, when I stopped off of the highway at a rest stop by one of those McDonalds they have off I-95. By this time I had dropped off two of my kids with their father, and only had my little one with me. I went into the restroom with her, and on my way out noticed two men hanging out by my car. There were only two other cars in the lot at the time that were anywhere near my vehicle. I immediately felt threatened by their demeanor, but continued on to my car. The smaller of the two approached me with a knife as I was about to open the door to put my child in her car seat. He yelled at me to get in the back of the car, they were taking me for a little ride. I obviously told them to just take my keys, they could have the car, but they insisted I get in the back. I then heard a man yelling something I don't quite recall, and saw him running towards me with a gun in his hand. The two men vanished into their car, and sped away. I stood there frozen in time, and by the time the gentleman with the gun got to me I just broke down and cried.

    To make a long story short, you were all right, and I'm sorry. This man with a gun saved me, and I just keep thinking if I had gotten my wish and guns were banned, there is no telling where I'd be, and what would've happened to my daughter. The only regret I have is not getting the man's phone number who saved my life. I thanked him over and over again, and told him that he saved me, but he calmly said to me something I'd never forget. He said "That's what people like me are here for Ms., and I'm happy to have been able to help."

    "That's what people like me are here for," those words keep on running through my head everyday. Maybe this gentleman by some chance is part of your group, and will read my message. If he does I would just like to say something to him, and to everyone else reading this note.

    Thank you for saving my life, and to the rest of you thank you for fighting for this man's right to protect me and my child. Tell him for me that I will no longer be part of the group who invades his home, and tries to tell him how to store his guns. Tell him I will never be part of any group who tries to make it impossible for him to buy his tool he used to save me. And tell him I will never again tell him how to raise his children properly, because obviously I was oblivious to the fact that responsible people such as him know how to raise their children better than I do. I did rectify that situation the other day; I bought a shotgun for home protection, and am in the process of getting my concealed permit. Next time I will be ready to defend myself, or others for that matter. Some of my friends think I'm crazy, but they try their best to understand. I just tell them that as soon as their child's life is put in jeopardy by some criminal with a weapon that they will understand, but until then don't tell me how to live my life. I've lost some friends, but surprisingly most of them understand. If not for this man I could very easily have been killed or raped, and my child could've been taken from me, so once more I need to say thanks for saving me, and with all sincerity to the rest of you, forgive me, for I have sinned.
  21. .cheese.

    .cheese. Member

    Feb 13, 2007
    In order:

    No jumper cables (doesn't own any either) - my dad is the only other one to own a set other than myself


    No (I'm the only one in the family who has ever taken the time to build a real first aid kit - my folks own a half a dozen bandaids and that's it)

    Negative on the flashlight in his car or home. He doesn't own one of those either.

    He has health insurance, dental insurance, and car insurance, none of which he purchased himself though (done through the family).

    I don't know if he carries cash.

    Also, one more thing I found interesting that I forgot to mention.

    Like I said, he's a smart kid in a lot of ways, and he claims that he is heavily involved in keeping up with politics..... but the other day when I asked him if he been watching the debates, he said, "No." - so I asked if he's been checking out the online records of the candidates views on various issues (such as their voting record if applicable, or laws they've signed into existence if applicable, or quotes that hint at their position on things). Again - "No." So I asked where he gets his information from. He told me, "I read the New York Times, that gives me all the information I need, plus I don't really care who wins. It's all about the party vote in my opinion. So long as a democrat wins, I'm happy."

    I was kind of stunned. What is this, freaking football? A team sport? He's getting his information from a biased source and doesn't care about individual candidates? Weird.

    Again, this just seemed odd to me, and I might have looked too far into it.
  22. .cheese.

    .cheese. Member

    Feb 13, 2007
    wow.... that's a great letter LT1coupe.
  23. Just Jim

    Just Jim Member

    Mar 27, 2006
    Sounds like he is disconected from real life. Some people live very happy lives that way, untill life gets a real hold on them.

  24. RKBABob

    RKBABob Member

    Sep 11, 2007
    Pennsylvania - Where we cling to guns and religion
    I've theorized at great length about the differences in brain function among different people. I, like you, am a logical thinker... so it shouldn't be a suprise that I try figure out how things work, including people. Here is my amateur pshchological analisis, based on my limited study of the subject:

    Your brother, and people like him, have what I like to call a "knowledge dump" for a brain. They are extremely good at memorizing things. Bits and pieces, such as dates, names, and extensive vocabularies get dumped in, and can be pulled back out when needed. However, very little processing goes on at the "knowledge dump." They think in soundbites, looking to data that was given to them in the past for answers to a question presented to them in the present. They may do well in academic tests, due to their memorization abilities.

    People with strong logic and reasoning skills, however, are sometimes horrible at memorization and vocabulary. Trivial pieces of information, such as dates and names, are often discarded by their minds as being irrelevant to understanding the why and how of the situation being discussed. Logical thinkers may actually do poorly in academic tests, due to poor memorization, and their tendency to dismiss concepts which they don't understand. Logical thinkers think in concepts... raw statistics are useless to them.

    Here's where I think these differences come into play:

    A "knowledge dump" brained person may have difficulty believing in a higher power, since this is conceptual thinking. They may be able to memorize the doctrine of entire religions, but it makes no sense to them. They need facts and figures presented to them to base their beliefs on. Evolution may appeal to their way of thinking, since there's lots of numbers and dates and fossil records. How chemicals could suddenly become alive, then evolve into humans, fish, birds and insects doesn't matter to them. They don't think about "how."

    Logical thinkers, on the other hand, will examine the probability of everything in nature occuring by chance. There must be an exact theory... one that the logical thinker can replay in his mind, and see exactly how it works. Logical thinkers gravitate toward religion since it presents a workable theory. It answers the logical thinker's need to know "how."

    "Knowledge dump" people tend to come up with simple solutions to complex problems... though those solutions may not actually work. Liberalism appeals to them, because it offers simple solutions. If the issue is poverty, the simple solution is to take money from the wealthy and give it to them. They may not consider what effects removing this money from the free market may have. They will, of course, feel more comfortable with the solution if it is presented with statistics, facts and figures.

    Logical thinkers tend to be more conservative/libertarian. When encountered with the same issue of poverty, a logical thinker will look to the individual choices that those in poverty have made, and attempt to determine a cause. They will also look to the local ecomomy, education levels, and opportunity available to them. Eventually, the logical thinker will come up with a 10 year plan to improve the local economy by attracting private industry, while also encouraging those who need it to take job training. The logical thinker probably won't have a lot of statistics to back up his position, since they are unimportant to the concept he has created.

    The "knowledge dump" minded person may base a support of gun control on all the statistics they have heard. Each time they read of a gun crime, it registers as another statistic pointing to their "guns are bad" conclusion. They may be unable to consider that they could be the victim of a crime, since there was no past data or experience to point them toward that conclusion. They do not plan ahead for the unexpected, as this would involve theories and concepts. Statistics tell the "knowledge dump" that guns are dangerous... they know exactly how many people accidentally shoot themselves every year. They can not, however, understand how proper gun handling can make firearms owners safe.

    A logical thinker realizes that guns are inanimate objects. He can clearly understand the concept of a criminal using whatever is available to him to commit his crimes. The logical thinker can come up with 20 hypothetical situations in which they may be the victim of a crime, and at least as many responses they could employ. They need not have been a victim in the past in order to grasp the concept that they are a potential victim right now. Logical thinkers know very well that any mechanical device, even one designed to be dangerous, can be operated safely if a few simple rules are followed.

    The only way to get through to those "knowledge dump" people is by bombarding them with figures and statistics. How many times are firearms used in self defense? How often do criminals ignore gun laws? What percentage of the population is a victim of violent crime each year? How often do the police arrive too late? How many American gun owners didn't shoot themselves this year? How many CCW holders haven't commited a crime with their sidearm?

    the above is an amateur analisis of personality types... feel free to disagree all you want. No flames, please.

    By the way, what is your brother majoring in?
  25. cornman

    cornman member

    Dec 8, 2007
    One way to look at things is that too many people are messed up, so why do we want these people to be able to get guns? People who do not like guns, or don't feel comfortable with them would rather live in a society where they do not exist. Makes perfect sense to me. There really is no reason for all these semi auto weopons other than people like them like people like muscle cars etc.
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