BG Encounters: What are you prepared for?

[brashboy]

Another of the seemingly endless line of .380 threads got me thinking. Why do these arguments about caliber, about how much gun is enough, keep coming up? Very interesting. Guys have taken multiple shots from .357s and similar weapons and not been incapacitated. An article in the latest CH discusses a coked-up BG shot in the chest with 9mm numerous times who kept renewing the attack. The LE cleared another fallen LE's gun jam and finally got enough 9's in the BG to drop him. (I suspect the BG actually was a zombie, but the magazine rather annoyingly danced around the subject.)

So, the 9mm is a more powerful round than .380, no question. But almost any cartridge you pick, there is a more powerful one. I don't want to meet the BG who can take a .460SW and stay on his feet. Bear with me, I'm working my way around to the question.

Where does the quest for firepower and knockdown end? We can all envision scenarios of an attacker on PCP or something else who doesn't flinch from a pistol round. Or worse, several attackers. No matter what you carry, will you have enough ammo? There is a practical limit to what can be carried, especially CCW. So if the .380 is a bit more anemic than the 9mm, there could easily be a situation where the 9/.40/.45 just doesn't cut it, either.The guy packing a .460SW certainly will never be underpowered for BGs but he could easily be in a situation where he just doesn't have enough rounds with him. Not to mention the fact that his hearing will be a memory after the gunfight. Not to mention size and weight of gun, etc.

Very few of us acting alone would prevail in a real firefight with multiple desperados, especially if they know their business. We would be outgunned, outshot, out of ammo. It is not practical to CCW enough gun and ammo for such a situation. There always is a compromise on weight and size, concealability, mag capacity, round power... whatever.

This question is not intended as a put down of any kind. Reading so many threads/arguments about caliber got me thinking about WHAT precisely the CCW crowd considers themselves ready for.

Now for the question:
Have you thought through your carry to what situations you are prepared for? And what are they?

For myself, I typically carry a Mauser Hsc .380 Corbon 90-gr., 6 +1 (lighter, thinner than the PT111, which I also like in the 147-gr.). No extra mag on me usually, though I keep two in the car. I am anticipating one, perhaps two, BGs, and if I have to pull the trigger I will shoot to kill. If 7 shots won't do it, would 13 or 20?I will try like all hell to keep it from getting to that point, but who knows? Running gunbattles with multiple BGs can happen, but I am usually with my family, and their safety is my first concern. If there are multiple BGs with firearms, I will concentrate efforts on getting away, saving ammo if possible. I have no macho fantasies to live, I just want my family to live; me too, hopefully.

 

[dstorm1911]

ya hit em in the face they will stop fighting...... If all I'm carryin is the tiny lil Keltec P3AT (it is normally backup for a .45 or a .40) by itself for whatever reason then I'm going to alter the way it is used, in otherwords I'm getting in close to the threat. I will be emptying the lil KT into chest and face. If carrying say onea my Springfield XDs on the other hand I'm going to have better accuracy and a harder hitting round two 180 grn Hollow points to the chest 1 to the face it doesn't matter what drugs are in his blood he's going to cease to be a threat........ I shoot every single day with a large variety of weapons.... Have been involved in Martial arts most of my life....... I also make a point of ALWAYS being aware of my surroundings at all times the average BG notices this and generally will look for an easier target... I have no choice but to be in some less than optimal locations so the best thing ya can do is not look like a victim while your there...

Ya gotta practice with the gun ya are carrying, I practice with the Keltecs out to 15 yards ballistically Thats the furthest I'm going to trust the caliber and I've hit coffee cans at that range and collected the bullet outa em with a big dent in the opposite side of the can, if all ya have is the .380 then ya needa practice shooting accurately and how to work in close to get the best benefit of the round for self defense thats why mouse guns are not recommended as main defensive guns unless ya cannot carry anything else....

 

[sm]

-Not being where trouble is
-Evading if trouble shows up
-Dealing with trouble in whatever way so I survive.

Now if a firearm is part of the toolbox, great.
If not, well, then that is why I have spent the tome on Software, not Hardware.
That I most often wear tennis shoes these days...

Oh, Lady Luck is always always welcome to show up!


<raises hand>

Does anybody know if the 6mm vs .243 debate ever got settled?
Just wondering, as I recall this debate in a 1955 Field & Stream, and over the years it kept going on...

Umm, how about the .38spl vs 9mm debate in a F&S article that was done before I was born in 1955?

I guess I better stick with the Software stuff since the Hardware stuff ain't settled yet...

 

[gbran]

Too often we think worse case scenario when deciding what to ccw with. We think of drug crazed zombies or getting cornered by 13 gangbangers, etc......... But, we really need to prepare for the most likely threat we're apt to run into. We can't arm for all situations, therefore we compromise and hope & pray the worst doesn't confront us.

We use situational awareness, we don't go to risky places, etc. Criminals are cowards and don't want to get shot any more than you do. Sometimes their knowing you're armed is enough to difuse a situation. The time may even come when you have to shoot. Just hope and pray it ain't the zombie or hordes of ganbangers.

I've looked long and hard for a 600 Nitro pockect gun that has a 15 round magazine and kicks like a .22. Since I can't find one, I've compromised with a Glock G26. Probably not big enough for the zombies.

 

[Soybomb]

Guys have taken multiple shots from .357s and similar weapons and not been incapacitated.

People have kept fighting after being shot with 00 buck and slugs too. Just because no weapon is 100% should we not try to seek out the most effective weapon of the size we can carry. I see no reason to carry a .380 if you can carry a 9mm of the same size, weight, and shootability...which you often can. That doesn't mean you can slip a sw500 into the same place. To me its about making the most of what you have.

If 7 shots won't do it, would 13 or 20?

This has always been one of the oddest things to me about concealed carry discussions. People seem to think that every round they carry is going to be a hit. If they carry 7 rounds, they're going to be able to shoot someone 7 times. With leo self defense shootings the hit rate is around 20-25% tops from what I've seen. Lets say you're a little better shot and two of your 7 rounds will hit your attacker. Are you confident that 2 hits is all it will take to stop an attack on you and your family? Even if you just have 1 attacker, thats not much.

 

[jwr_747]

most of my thinking on what to carry depends on where I'm headed.downtown booger town carry the 45.farmers market,wide open spaces lots of folks,may take the Beretta 21A because there I see the biggest threat as a car jacking,and I don't care how much crack you have in you at arms distance 7 rounds of 22LR in the nose ,eye,forehead area will put you down. jwr

 

[Snowman92D]

Sounds like you've never dealt with anyone who was on crack and committed to killing you. Best of luck with your .22 rimfire.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I'm lot better prepared than I was for the one I was in years ago.

 

[koja48]

Heavy into situational awareness & avoidance, then evasive action, and finally hardware application, usually in the form of a 1911 when away from the base. Options expand when inside the perimeter.

 

[skud_dusty]

I'm a good sized person, 6ft2, about 230. The only reason I'm ever going to pull my firearm is if the other person has a firearm or other deadly weapon. I carry enough to disable that person from using their weapon on me. If it doesn't "stop" them, I think I can handle anything else without bullets

If meth/coke is the case, and a few to the chest doesn't stop them, then it's right between the eyes.

 

[mavracer]

Heavy into situational awareness & avoidance, then evasive action, and finally hardware application.

If meth/coke is the case, and a few to the chest doesn't stop them, then it's right between the eyes

+1
then after that come to the realization that no matter how well I prepare the situation may not allow for my survival and do my best to take the B@$T@** with me.

 

[p85]

Let's say 2 out of 7 are hits, 15 in the mag and 1 in the pipe means 4 hits, more or less. My 10mm with 180 grain dbl tap with 2 COM and 2 to the head should stop a threat. At the very least, it will slow them down to where even I can out run them.

 

[Risasi]

scud_dusty,

Overconfidence is your weakness. Expect attacks to come at you sideways.

 

[Cosmoline]

Have you thought through your carry to what situations you are prepared for? And what are they?

Drawing and firing a concealed handgun in order to stop an imminent deadly peril while getting to concealment, cover and ideally an escape route. It's simply a tool to cover retreat. I do not envision myself getting in a high noon gunfight or standing my ground if I'm not physically prevented from doing so. This has nothing to do with a duty to retreat. It's simply good tactics. The best way to win a gunfight is from behind C&C with a high powered rifle aimed at your enemy's chest. The best way to lose one is standing out in the open while standing tall.

don't care how much crack you have in you at arms distance 7 rounds of 22LR in the nose ,eye,forehead area will put you down

Probably so, but while lethal the .22LR also has a reputation as a poor STOPPER. It kills, but not very quickly. You can nick an artery or get a bullet lodged in a bad place that's impossible to get out safely in surgery, but these will take a bit of time to have effect. Maybe even five or ten minutes or more. So a lot of people who get shot with them COM do die, it's not before having ample opportunity to follow through with the attack on you. For example, President Reagan almost died after getting hit with a .22 to the torso. But he still had energy to run off and was even walking around before collapsing.

 

[sacp81170a]

Oh, Lady Luck is always always welcome to show up!

My problem is that Murphy tends to show up more frequently than Lady Luck, so I always prepare for his appearance rather than hers.

Regardless of what you're ready for, it's best to remember to have an open mind.

"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you'll neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." - Clint Eastwood in "The Outlaw Josie Wales"

 

[igpoobah]

I'm ready for one somewhat motivated bad guy who doesn't catch me too much by surprise.

I'm OK with that. I realize that it could be much worse than that, but that is not likely. It is unlikely I will encounter the first BG I mentioned.

I'm just happy that I am armed when out and about. I figure that just brandishing the pistol will ward off most BG's and that's only if I haven't already escaped.

 

[KiltedClaymore]

most states will arrest you for brandishing your firearm. even if you had a reason, its still public endangerment. never pull unless you are gonna kill is what i was taught. forgive me if i offend anyone.

 

[igpoobah]

I'm sorry, but if I feel my life is threatened and I pull with the intention to kill and the BG does an immediate about face and heads the other direction, you expect me to shoot the BG in the back?

 

[KiltedClaymore]

theres always an exception to the rule. i think that would be deemed a justified "brandishing" by most police. what i was talking about is if you are not threatened with immediate death, pulling a gun is not acceptable. if you can get away, do so. give them what they want and they will usualy go away, because not many criminals want to end up in the chair because they killed someone while stealing a wallet. now, if the guy has a knife or other weapon, go right ahead. i just frown on flashing guns as a deterance. it could provoke violence that would have otherwise not happened.

 

[James T Thomas]

to be or not to be

"KC:"
"Brandishing" for deterrence effect is often ineffective, and some times even a "challenge" to those, say, under the influence, etc. Correct.

On the other hand "giving them what they want," may not always result in a peacefull solution, particularly with today's cold hearted murderous criminals!
How about those poor kids at the WA "Starbucks" who must have given robbers the register money, only to be "herded" into a store room and executed in cold blood. "I'm never going back to prison." Is the rationale, if you can call it that. Too many of the convenience store robberies end up like this. Presence of customers or "witnesses" or not.

If you are armed, but "under the gun," you are in dire circumstance to begin with. I would then be intending to some how get ahead of the "loop," and very judicious in any cooperation with a perp who may, or may not want "just your money."

 

[KiltedClaymore]

just throwin my .02 in.

 

[brashboy]

most states will arrest you for brandishing your firearm. even if you had a reason, its still public endangerment. never pull unless you are gonna kill is what i was taught.

This would seem to be the number one thing a lot of people don't think about when envisioning street encounters. What you do on the streets and how it looks in the courtroom could be two very different things. Just showing a weapon is a very significant act. Actually pulling it is an even bigger one. I go by the old saw of never drawing the sword unless it is going to draw blood. There needs to be a compelling reason to show or pull the piece, like a direct and immediate threat from a knife or gun.

 

[KiltedClaymore]

Brashboy to the rescue!

 

[skud_dusty]

If I'm overconfident, then so is every other person that carries a 1911. My carry weapon has a 7 round capacity, 2 more than a 5 shot revolver which many many people carry.

Don't get me wrong, I know I came off a little cocky in my previous post. I did not mean it that way. I am confident enough to take care of myself, but I also know that a weapon may some day be needed...so I carry one.

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

What happens if you miss? A few times? What about multiple assailants? What about multiple assailants when you're down to your last round or two?

Large bullets and multiple spare magazines can go a long way toward piece of mind and body.