"Big Brother" question about buying guns

[snorko]

Or credit card records. I wonder how many people have bought AK's or AR's "under the radar" and then ordered a slew of mags or accessories from some website?

 

[leadcounsel]

A couple years after I let my license expire I got a letter asking me to mail in the 4473's. I ignored it. Roughly 6 months later I got another letter just like the first one, so I put them in a big envelope and shipped them off.

As inefficient as this government is, I suspect there's a good chance they just disappeared into a government black hole, never to be seen again

And I bet the forms didn't. I bet some interns typed all of that information into massive databases and then the forms were scanned and saved. Evidenced by the fact that they didn't just forget about the forms AND many agencies/states (per the above comments) have been caught keeping the records.

 

[sernv99]

Or credit card records. I wonder how many people have bought AK's or AR's "under the radar" and then ordered a slew of mags or accessories from some website?

I doubt CC companies will hand over any records to "the man". In addition, it will take the gov't many many years just to go through all those records.

 

[Bubba613]

And I bet the forms didn't. I bet some interns typed all of that information into massive databases and then the forms were scanned and saved. Evidenced by the fact that they didn't just forget about the forms AND many agencies/states (per the above comments) have been caught keeping the records.

And I'll bet you're dead wrong.
The gov't didnt forget about the forms because dealers are required to turn them in when they go out of business. Once the license expired they waited for that to happen and when it didnt, they wrote.
The records are next to useless, and get more so as time goes on.

 

[misANTHrope]

Or credit card records. I wonder how many people have bought AK's or AR's "under the radar" and then ordered a slew of mags or accessories from some website?

I don't know about you, but my credit card records don't include itemized invoices for each order.

 

[Anna's Dad]

I have a follow-up question for anyone who might know for sure.

It seems generally agreed that dealers must retain records for 20 years. Is that all records or just sales? Meaning, if I use a dealer simpy to transfer a gun from a private seller out of state (thinking gunbroker.com) is that also kept 20 years?

I'm guessing all records are the same and the answer is "yes", but I figured I'd ask.

Thanks...

 

[oneounceload]

One thing I'm not sure about is how long dealers are required to maintain records of firearms purchases. I'm guessing this probably varies from state-to-state as well, but there are probably federal requirements as well. If anyone has info on this, I'd appreciate it.

When I had an FFL, I had to keep my records until I ceased being an FFL, at which time those records were sent to the BATF for their files/archives

 

[rbernie]

I'm guessing all records are the same and the answer is "yes", but I figured I'd ask.

All transfers get logged in/out of the bound book regardless of whether it's just a transfer or a sale. The bound book is the record that must be retained.

 

[5knives]

FWIW,

Back about '93, the ATF visited every single gun dealer in The Milwaukee, WI area. They requested the dealers book of sales records and made copies of every purchase of an AK variant or SKS going back to 1985.

I was in one shop when they paid their visit, I asked the owner if that wasn't illegal.

His answer?

"I'm certain it is, but this is my only livelihood, I've got a wife and two kids to feed and I don't dare refuse them! they can always make something up to fine me and pull my license."

The nearest agent just glared at me and went back to copying pages, the other one just smiled!

Somehow I don't believe Federal agencies feel overly constrained to follow the precise letter of the law.

Actually, based on experiences while i was a LEO, I know they don't.

Regards,

 

[Bubba613]

I assume this was part of a criminal investigation and so nothing illegal about it.

As to the question about transfers or sales, any gun that stays on the dealer's premises more than 24 hours must be logged. If it is being transferred it still must be logged, even if less than 24 hours.
The 4473s must be kept 20 years, the A&D books forever.

 

[5knives]

Actually I assume it was a fishing expedition.

When they come in to check a weapon they normally have a serial number, a Manufacturer and a model number , all obtained from the manufacturer and a record of when that dealer received it from his supplier.

They don't come in with a copier and copy 8 years worth of 4473's.

And they don't do that to 20 some shops over a two month period.

Least that's how they did it both times they traced a firearm to a shop I was working in.

But, as always JMHO.

Regards,

 

[Bubba613]

Fishing for what?
No, that sure sounds like a criminal investigation to me.

 

[THOMAS W]

firearms purchase records

Hello ! Am new to the forum , but a firearm enthusiast for many years . I am NOT a lawyer but the 4473's are kept on micro-fish by BATF forever once you turn em in. I believe the 90 day destruction rule was under the old BRADY BILL . The BRADY ACT did prohibit registration , but was not strictly enforced . MORE IMPORTANTLY is "The Fire Arms Owners Protection Act OF 1983 ? It PROHIBITS Federal , State and Local subdivisions from compiling a list of Firearm Owners and TYPE of firearm or serial #. Interesting eh ? Then why are the 4473's kept ? I am not a tin foil hat person , however , anyone whom believes that firearm purchase records are not kept is in denial . Semper Fi ! Tom

 

[moooose102]

i usually buy new guns, whether it be rifle or pistol. not that there is anything wrong with used, i just prefer to be responsible for every aspect of the firearms care. i guess i am kind of anal that way. as for the feds, i am sure, that somewhere, in their vast storeage collection, is the paperwork from my first new rifle purchase back in 1976. if and when they come for our guns, they will want to know where every single one that i have ever bought went. when that time comes, i think i will have a "tragic boating accident" or something. really, i am not to worried about it. i find it terribly hard to believe that they could actually try to comfiscate every single gun in america. such an action would certainly trigger a new "civil war" or maybe even an attempt to overthrow our govenment. that IS one of the reasons we have the second amendment you know. in any case, many millions of lives would be lost. it would be a lose-lose situation for our entire country. i am not so sure about them legislation to ban future purchases. our kids, and grand kids are going to have a much harder time with firearm freedoms than we have had, if something PERMANANT is not put in place, and soon!

 

[PT1911]

so.. my thing is... if you have nothing to hide, why fear the paperwork... so what if they know you bought it.. they dont know you kept it.. last I checked you could freely sell a gun to an individual whenever you like... if "they" come to your door asking for your gun (which is very unlikely as it would be very dangerous for everyone involved) who says you still own it. there is no way for "them" to verify that you still own the gun.. it is childish paranoia to avoid paperwork for fear that the government will pass a bill in the night giving them the right to come into your house and take your guns. I know bans on the commercial sale of guns may take place in the future, but the fact remains, no one is coming to take your guns, but, if by chance a law is passed to confiscate guns, better believe I am burying all but a single shot steven's 12 ga.. if they want a gun.. they can take my least valuble.. I would rather the others rot.

 

[Bubba613]

Hello ! Am new to the forum , but a firearm enthusiast for many years . I am NOT a lawyer but the 4473's are kept on micro-fish by BATF forever once you turn em in. I believe the 90 day destruction rule was under the old BRADY BILL . The BRADY ACT did prohibit registration , but was not strictly enforced . MORE IMPORTANTLY is "The Fire Arms Owners Protection Act OF 1983 ? It PROHIBITS Federal , State and Local subdivisions from compiling a list of Firearm Owners and TYPE of firearm or serial #. Interesting eh ? Then why are the 4473's kept ? I am not a tin foil hat person , however , anyone whom believes that firearm purchase records are not kept is in denial . Semper Fi ! Tom

Poor spelling, caps, poorly written, etc. Just wow.
Anyway, the 4473s are kept on premises for criminal investigations. The 4473s are not transmitted to any agency (although some of the info is). Not every state uses NICS.
I must be in denial because I don't think they keep a record of firearms purchases, beyond the multiples.

 

[chuckusaret]

And then there's Delaware, the state that was recently caught warehousing gun purchase data...

Thats the state where the guy with the "Foot in Mouth Disease" is from. Yes, Biden who is anti gun.

 

[THOMAS W]

Hey Bubba, No sense to start a flame war here cause you seem to disagree. I may not be computer savy, or have the best penmanship, but the 4473s is a record of your firearm purchase. Sure it's legal to sell guns without a FFL. I agree, most of the info contained on them change with time and is probably out of date. Never less, the 4473 is a record of your purchase . The Govt. does keep these records. I never mentioned confiscation. Having some experience with FFL License myself, they most certainly can research/use the FFL for a criminal investigation. Frankly, it makes no difference to me with filling out the 4473 form to purchase. Do some research on the "Fire Arms Owners Protection Act" signed into law in 1986 ? Fed Law 18 U.S.C. 926 (2) (A)

 

[CoRoMo]

Mention the Echelon Corporation to my dad and he'll instantly spring into 'tinfoil hat' mode. He refuses to discuss a great many issues over the phone or via email, and believe me, he has nothing worth hiding.