Bill of Sale????

[nalioth]

I am afraid of buying a stolen gun. Would a receipt with the seller's info protect me?

There is nothing keeping you from it, except to not buy any used guns.

You can buy a stolen gun from a gun shop. No "stolen gun" checks are required of FFL holders (some cities require checks from pawnbrokers).

As far as "protection", protection from what? If you're found with a stolen gun you bought in good faith (didn't know it was stolen), it'll be recovered by the police and (hopefully) sent back to it's original owner.

 

[howlnmad]

A piece of paper with the buyer and sellers name upon it, no witness, no notary public. May as well stick it between the pages of the Sears Roebuck or Montgomery Ward catalogue out in the privy for future use. That's about all it's good for.

 

[staggerlee213]

I'd probably want some kind of receipt, especially if it's an expensive item in case any question of ownership came up. That's for guns, a computer, camera etc... anything valuable

 

[NavyLCDR]

I do verify the buyer has a picture ID from my state per the ATF requirement.

You must hold an FFL swede4198. There is no such ATF requirement for private sales.

I have no problem doing a bill of sale to act as a receipt for the gun and as a receipt for the money. I will also show ID to verify state of residence, even thought it is NOT an ATF requirement. No way are you getting a copy of my ID or writing down it's number. I don't know you, I wouldn't give that information to Joe Schmoe on the street. If my name, address, telephone number and signature on a receipt and a visual peek at my ID aren't good enough, then we don't do business.

 

[lwknight]

It looks like mostly CA and OR folks think a bill of sale is a good idea. Most everyone else thinks its BS.

 

[marv]

Most dealers won't give a BOS or even a reciept with the SN on it so why on earth should one be expected in a F2F sale?
BTW if you live long enough every health care provider you deal with will have your SSN. At age 65 your SSN becomes your Medecare number.

 

[psyopspec]

A person who has legitimate plans for the gun should not be afraid of a bill of sale.

Could the same logic apply in saying that:

"A person who has legitimate plans for the gun should not be afraid of registration."

or

"A person who has legitimate plans for the gun should not be afraid of legitimate confiscation in the event that their legitimate plans become illegitimate."

Note: Rhetorical, no reply expected.

 

[jon_in_wv]

look at it as kind of an honesty check, but then you have fun stuff like C&R, where you are required to collect information...

But if a guy is willing to sign a piece of paper saying he is buying the gun legally, well, kinda makes you wonders, esp. if the only on paper info is his name, date and firearm info.

Its NOT an honesty check, it just makes you feel better. If bad guys are willing to lie on official ATF forms and risk prison, why wouldn't they lie to YOU? The fact is you can't avoid running into a bad character. It is a risk you take. But if you sell your weapon, comply with Federal and State law and you will be fine. If they don't require one, you are fine without it.

 

[mcdonl]

The majority of the time money and gun change hands. Occasionally I will ask to see an ID to verify age if the seller/buyer looks like they could be underage. I have never been asked to show my ID or provide a bill of sale. It is the LACK of paperwork that I like about FTF sales.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

If I buy FTF I want a bill of sale if the seller is not known to me. The seller may report the gun stolen at some point for whatever reason and I want PROOF that I paid for it. I will do this with ANYTHING that I buy.

 

[youngda9]

I don't do bill of sales because nothing that I own is registered. There is no registration in Indiana so I see no need to have a bill of sale.

I wouldn't object if a seller required one, but I make no effort on my end since I think it's unnecessary.

 

[writerinmo]

I do bills of sale here in Missouri even though I don't have to verify identification unless it's C&R. Why? Because if you have a problem with me knowing who you are, then I ain't about to sell you a firearm. You can mosey on down to the gun show, or the street corner, and get it from someone else, no sweat off my brow. If I sell a gun and end the paper trail and that gun is used in my area in a crime and the BG even looks a little like me, I want that piece of paper saying I sold it, since it's "guilty until proven innocent' anymore, and that one scrap of paper might be the difference in my sleeping at home that night. I have no problem not selling to eccentrics who worry that every bit of their personal information is going to be used against them.

 

[rbernie]

Its not a legal requirement, nor do I believe there is any legal advantage to them (or legal disadvantage to not using them).

I don't require it when I sell a gun nor do I expect one when I buy one but if the other party (buying or selling) wants one I don't mind ... whatever makes you comfortable.

Where I draw the line is at local sellers that want to do the deal through an FFL ... that's just stupid.

This.

Its NOT an honesty check, it just makes you feel better. If bad guys are willing to lie on official ATF forms and risk prison, why wouldn't they lie to YOU? The fact is you can't avoid running into a bad character. It is a risk you take. But if you sell your weapon, comply with Federal and State law and you will be fine. If they don't require one, you are fine without it.

And this.

As far as I have been able to determine, there is zero legal benefit to a bill of sale. More to the point, you have zero assurance that the infomation provided on it is legit. A BoS is not a magic talisman that somehow makes it less likely that you'll sell a gun to A Bad Person, and it's not a Get Out OF Jail Free card in the event that you do. Your situational awareness and ability to suss out good deals from shady deals is still your best defense against selling a gun to a prohibited person.

<rant>
Last time I looked at the statistics from the DoJ, something close to fifty percent of all Federal felons who used a firearm during the commission of their crime were not prohibited persons when they obtained the firearm. You clearly and logically cannot be responsible for how somebody uses an object after you sell it, and I have never groked why so many in the gunny community seem to feel that somehow that's our responsibility and burden.
</rant>

 

[22-rimfire]

I would prefer to know who I am selling a firearm to. I ask for their driver's license now because they are often young and as you get older, it seems harder to "guess" somebody's age and I want to be comfortable with their state of residence. The residency issue is important in my area as you see people from NC, TN, GA, AL, and KY very commonly at gunshows. In Northeast TN you run into VA residents and west TN you run into MS, and AR residents. Before I knew the law, I never asked their residency.

I have never gotten a bill of sale on a FTF transfer even though I think it is a good idea. Abide by the law and you are good to go.

 

[Frank Ettin]

As far as I'm concerned, the primary reasons to document a private transaction are --

[1] If you sell a gun that is later connected with a crime, and the gun somehow gets traced back to you (which can happen if you bought the gun from a dealer), you will have some documentation to support your story that you sold the gun prior to its criminal use;

[2] If you bought a gun that, without your knowledge, had previously been reported stolen, and you were found with the gun, you would have documentation that you bought the gun, when and from whom.

[3] If you unknowingly sold a gun privately to someone who turned out to be from another state or a prohibited person, and the sale gets tracked back to you, you'll have some documentation to help show that you had no reason to believe the buyer was from another state or was a prohibited person. (And that could work even if any ID you got was bogus, as long as it wasn't obviously bogus).

It's up to you to decide on what terms you will sell (or buy) a gun. Documenting the deal could be a deal breaker for some folks. Not documenting the deal would be a deal breaker for others. You need to decide how you want to handle it and what risks you're willing, or unwilling, to take.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

You need to decide how you want to handle it and what risks you're willing, or unwilling, to take.

that about covers it for me.

 

[NavyLCDR]

As far as I have been able to determine, there is zero legal benefit to a bill of sale.

What about the legal benefit of having a receipt? What if you get a small claims filed against you if you sell a gun and the buyer is claiming, "I gave him the money (check or money order) for this gun but he never delivered the gun." Or in reverse, the seller claims, "I gave him this gun, but he never gave me the money to pay for it!"

I look at the bill of sale as a simple receipt for the exchange of goods/money. But, just like I won't let Wal Mart put a copy of my driver's license number on my receipt for the stereo I bought there, I won't let anyone put it on a bill of sale for a gun.

 

[AirForceShooter]

I'm in Fla. No paperwork is required.
All that is necessary is that the seller believes the buyer is allowed to buy.
I don't do BOS. All I want when I sell is the buyer show me his CCW. No CCW no sale.
When I but I'll show my CCW.
No one is putting down any numbers.
If you want to go the BOS route all I ask is you say so in your ad.

AFS

 

[jimmyraythomason]

All I put on the bill of sale is buyer's and seller' names (and signatures)and a description of the firearm. The only numbers are the firearm's serial number(a BOS is useless without one) and amount paid. None of this is required by my state or by federal law. It is what you do when you buy from or sell to me.

 

[hiphowitzer]

You must hold an FFL swede4198. There is no such ATF requirement for private sales.
.

This from ATF FAQ:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

The way I read this, you need to verify residency with a photo id and at the very minimum insure that the buyer is 18 or older otherwise the buyer is a prohibited person.

 

[brboyer]

This from ATF FAQ:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

The way I read this, you need to verify residency with a photo id and at the very minimum insure that the buyer is 18 or older otherwise the buyer is a prohibited person.

You are reading it wrong.

If you know he is not a resident, you cannot sell.

The law does not require you to know that he is a resident.

BTW, a photo ID does not necessarily prove residency. That is why the law is written as it is.

 

[A and O]

Although this thread does not apply to me, I think I can contribute to it in a positive manner.

The only reason I would give a BOS to anybody is for my own protection. I would state on my copy and the buyers that this Gun is being "Sold As Is". No warranty whatsoever. In California that is the only way to release yourself from any liability after the sale. And when written into auto contracts it also releases you from the Smog Junk.

Geez I hate this State.


Had to edit to say that this entry is given to you "As Is, No Warranty Expressed or implied"

 

[NavyLCDR]

The way I read this, you need to verify residency with a photo id and at the very minimum insure that the buyer is 18 or older otherwise the buyer is a prohibited person.

According to that reasoning, hiphowitzer, you would also have to perform a background check on the buyer to ensure they are not a felon, you would have to do a medical records check to ensure they have not been declared a mental incompetant , been committed to a mental institution or have been addicted to illegal drugs, and you have to do a local background check to ensure they have no misdemeanor convitions of domestic violence.

 

[Packman]

Most dealers won't give a BOS or even a reciept with the SN on it so why on earth should one be expected in a F2F sale?

Every gun I've ever purchased from a dealer included Bill of Sale/Receipt that listed a description of the gun, the serial number, and the amount paid.

If I buy from a private individual, I'm willing to show a FL driver's license and a CCW, if the seller really wants to see it. By show, I basically mean "flash." I'm not going to have someone I don't know a thing about recording any of my personal information, thank you very much. I have no idea what they're going to do with it, and I'm a suspicious person. If they don't like it, I'm not buying their guns.

As far as me selling a gun, I dunno. I never have, and don't have any I really intend to sell. If I went to the trouble of buying it, I probably wanted it bad enough that I'm keeping it. The only exception to this one is a shotgun I bought as a gift for my best friend. Other than that, if I bought it, it's mine.

 

[thorazine]

i get dirty looks and they dont seem to happy when i ask them to sign one....

Do you state up front that a bill of sale is required in the advertisement or instead surprise them after they drove a half hour for the meeting?

If you like to surprise the buyer I would give you dirty looks and would potentially cancel the deal.