Bill of Sale????
- Thread starter huntinggamo
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jimmyraythomason
Member
Fudd rules? If you buy from me and don't want a BOS that's fine with me but if I buy from you and you don't want to give me a BOS/receipt for my money,I'll just find a seller who will.
In Michigan a buyer by state law has to have a purchase permit or a CPL to buy from a dealer or a private party. The law also requires the sale to be documented and reported to the state police. Good or bad, thats what you require of a buyer in MI if you want to follow the law when selling FTF.
Please do. IMO when we add unnecessary requirements to the law we’re no different than the antis. In Colorado a legal private sale (where less than 2% of crime guns come from) is unregulated. If the state feels that no regulation is needed why should you add any?
If you get a recipt from me it will say "Jimmyraythompson gave me X dollars and I gave him a firearm done deal."
jimmyraythomason
Member
That's total BS. If I pay for anything including a gun I want a receipt for my money. That is in no way contrary to the 2nd amendment or any other right or freedom. It's just good business.
hiphowitzer
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- Sep 1, 2009
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- 16
Read my post again. You have to have " reasonable cause". Checking a drivers license for residency and age is reasonable. A backround check is beyond the resources of most sellers.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Spell my name correctly and we have a deal. (I will record the serial number on my copy)
NavyLCDR
member
hiphowitzer said:
Read the statute again. You say you "NEED" to see a driver's license to verify residency - but then you turn around and say that doing a background check is unreasonable. And yet, the exact same restrictions in statute apply to residency as does felon, mental defective, committed to a mental institution, etc. So how can you say that it is required to see a driver's license or ID, but not required to verify the other items? The EXACT same language is used in the statute for both! The fact is that the Federal statute does NOT require you to verify state of residence just as much as it does NOT require you to verify the person is not a felon, etc...
18 USC 922 (a)(5) and (d):
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
(6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
(B)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
22-rimfire
Member
Some may not like this, but I do ask for the buyer's ID if I am selling. If they want a bill of sale, they get one. But I record the buyer's name and what I can remember when I look at their driver's license on my copy for my records. I don't do it in front of them, but I guarantee I know their name and address for my records.
Seldom in my life have I really felt that I "needed" to sell a firearm. So if the buyer is uncomfortable, I really don't care and I do get their information. I seldom really care if the gun sells today or next year.
Seldom in my life have I really felt that I "needed" to sell a firearm. So if the buyer is uncomfortable, I really don't care and I do get their information. I seldom really care if the gun sells today or next year.
PX15
Member
FWIW:
I'm old (67) and I have always gotten a receipt from a seller when buying a gun, and I've always given a receipt when I sold a gun.
Just personal preference, I think doing so "might" make it easier for me down the road should a gun I sold be involved in a crime, and easier for me should a gun I bought, in good faith, be stolen, or have been somehow involved in a crime before I purchased it.
It's not necessarily about the legality of doing giving and getting a receipt, or bill of sale, I just feel better when I do, and that's good enough for me.
The idea that having a bill of sale is a good thing is so ingrained in my thinking that last weekend at the Eastman Gun Show in Savannah, Ga. when I traded in a Walther G22 + cash for a Marlin Original Golden 39A, and no information was exchanged between myself and the seller I was amazed.
My buddy reminded me that in many instances a trade/selling of a long rifle is different than the same procedure for a handgun, but I was still surprised at how simple the transaction was.
Or:
How much are you asking for the 39A?
Can you take less?
Um.. that's better....
Will you take this Walther G22 in trade?
No?
Seeya.. Have a great day.
Oh, you WILL take the G22 in trade?
Great.. I appreciate it.
Here's my G22 (Thank you Lord, I was really beginning not to like that sucker).
Here's the cash difference my wifey kindly loaned me.
Have a good day... Thanks to you, I'm having one already..
Painless.
Priceless...
Jesse
I'm old (67) and I have always gotten a receipt from a seller when buying a gun, and I've always given a receipt when I sold a gun.
Just personal preference, I think doing so "might" make it easier for me down the road should a gun I sold be involved in a crime, and easier for me should a gun I bought, in good faith, be stolen, or have been somehow involved in a crime before I purchased it.
It's not necessarily about the legality of doing giving and getting a receipt, or bill of sale, I just feel better when I do, and that's good enough for me.
The idea that having a bill of sale is a good thing is so ingrained in my thinking that last weekend at the Eastman Gun Show in Savannah, Ga. when I traded in a Walther G22 + cash for a Marlin Original Golden 39A, and no information was exchanged between myself and the seller I was amazed.
My buddy reminded me that in many instances a trade/selling of a long rifle is different than the same procedure for a handgun, but I was still surprised at how simple the transaction was.
Or:
How much are you asking for the 39A?
Can you take less?
Um.. that's better....
Will you take this Walther G22 in trade?
No?
Seeya.. Have a great day.
Oh, you WILL take the G22 in trade?
Great.. I appreciate it.
Here's my G22 (Thank you Lord, I was really beginning not to like that sucker).
Here's the cash difference my wifey kindly loaned me.
Have a good day... Thanks to you, I'm having one already..
Painless.
Priceless...
Jesse
Bonesinium
Member
Well I have never done a FTF transfer/sale/trade, I think it is completely reasonable to get a bill of sale AND ask to see and ID if you want.
Having a bill of sale does a couple things. It is some sort of proof that you own (if you are buying) or don't own a specific firearm. Even if neither are legally required, it can still be beneficial and easier for you to get other things accomplished.
Example, from experience.
Handgun is stolen. You report it. If you bought it face to face, have no bill of sale, even though you haven't done anything wrong, it is much more convenient and quicker to go through the process of reporting it stolen when you can just show them some paperwork that verifies you have that firearm to begin with. Not all cops are as helpful as others...
Having a bill of sale does a couple things. It is some sort of proof that you own (if you are buying) or don't own a specific firearm. Even if neither are legally required, it can still be beneficial and easier for you to get other things accomplished.
Example, from experience.
Handgun is stolen. You report it. If you bought it face to face, have no bill of sale, even though you haven't done anything wrong, it is much more convenient and quicker to go through the process of reporting it stolen when you can just show them some paperwork that verifies you have that firearm to begin with. Not all cops are as helpful as others...
In Fl there is a link I posted a while back where you can check to see if the gun was stolen right from your cell if you have a 3g phone with internet. I did that when I met a fella in a parking lot once. He didn't even want to get out of his truck. He was dressed in Cameo from head to toe when he finally did exit the blk Durango. All was well, he had FL license, and that was that. As far as insurance goes if you just take pictures of your stuff that is uaually enough. Down here with the hurricane crap, insurance companys are pretty good, and when they gave me a shortfall that last one we had, I took them to court and got another 15 thousand. It comes down to how much you want the gun, and how much you are willing to do to get it. But I just don't trust stragers with my ID, I have been told by the banks and CC companies not to give out any info you don't have to.
CajunBass
Member
I see no sense at all in doing for the government what they don't have the authority, either given or taken, to do themselves.
rscalzo
Member
Where do you get that from?? Documentatuion for your own use? What does that have to do with the government?
tooltech
Member
Perpetuating a paper trail for your "personal use" or "protection" has everything to do with the government. Who else is going to be interested in a private transaction?
CapnMac
Member
I prefer a BoS for the same reason that I want one in every other transaction.
If you contract with me to come set up your office computer network, I'm going to bill you. You will get a receipt which details what you paid for and how you paid. When I buy something to resell, I'm keeping my receipt for my business purposes. Simple as that.
Government is not involved. Not unless they develop warrants and PC and the like.
But, if I take calves to the auction house, but sell them in the parking lot, there's a BoS. If I buy or sell a firearm, it's no different to my thinking.
If you contract with me to come set up your office computer network, I'm going to bill you. You will get a receipt which details what you paid for and how you paid. When I buy something to resell, I'm keeping my receipt for my business purposes. Simple as that.
Government is not involved. Not unless they develop warrants and PC and the like.
But, if I take calves to the auction house, but sell them in the parking lot, there's a BoS. If I buy or sell a firearm, it's no different to my thinking.
Gord
Member
tooltech said:
You act as if anyone asking you to sign a bill of sale is then going to forward it straight to some government database like a good little serf. It's personal CYA; if you don't do anything moronic with the gun that's in my name on the 4473, I won't have any reason to show a government agent (or anyone else) the bill of sale. If a badge does knock on my door inquiring as to whether I know anything about my gun being used to knock over a bank the next town over, however, I'm not going to risk my personal status quo by offering up the undocumented explanation that "yeah, I totally sold it to some dude a couple weeks back. Nope, don't know his name or where he lives or anything about him whatsoever. Well, I guess that's that!"
This also isn't unique to guns. If I'm forking out much more than $200 for a piece of merchandise, I'm probably going to want a bill of sale stating that I now own the merchandise in question, that it's in working order (if applicable) at the time of sale, etc., etc. I'd expect any buyer with a whit of intelligence to request same.
stickhauler
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- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 538
I'm frankly amazed at so many responses to this thread where the person said they'd refuse to do a BOS for a firearm purchase or sale. I thought this was the High Road, where we tried to promote legal transfers of firearms.
I assure you, if you buy a firearm from me, you'll either show me your ID with enough time for me to note your name, address, and drivers license number, or CCW permit number if that's the ID you choose to show. Both your information, and mine will be listed on a copy of the bill of sale, along with the serial number of the firearm. The purchase price will be listed as well, with the notation included that you're buying the firearm "as is" and my assurance it operated properly to the best of my knowledge at the time of sale. We'll both sign it, with the names listed in buyer/seller information. If that ain't cool with you, we aren't going to have a deal. I'd require this from you, that I don't know from Adam, or from my own brother or son.
To those who are so up in the air about refusing to go through with a deal where someone required those simple steps for the transfer of a firearm in a face-to-face sale, thanks for giving the anti-gun crowd every piece of proof they need to demand that face-to-face sales be banned nationwide. They might not have your name and address, but they have the proof they can cut and paste into an e-mail to a legislator demanding private sales be banned.
I thought we were supposed to be the good guys?
I assure you, if you buy a firearm from me, you'll either show me your ID with enough time for me to note your name, address, and drivers license number, or CCW permit number if that's the ID you choose to show. Both your information, and mine will be listed on a copy of the bill of sale, along with the serial number of the firearm. The purchase price will be listed as well, with the notation included that you're buying the firearm "as is" and my assurance it operated properly to the best of my knowledge at the time of sale. We'll both sign it, with the names listed in buyer/seller information. If that ain't cool with you, we aren't going to have a deal. I'd require this from you, that I don't know from Adam, or from my own brother or son.
To those who are so up in the air about refusing to go through with a deal where someone required those simple steps for the transfer of a firearm in a face-to-face sale, thanks for giving the anti-gun crowd every piece of proof they need to demand that face-to-face sales be banned nationwide. They might not have your name and address, but they have the proof they can cut and paste into an e-mail to a legislator demanding private sales be banned.
I thought we were supposed to be the good guys?
nalioth
Member
In Texas, BoS' are not legally required.stickhauler said:
In Texas, showing ID isn't legally required, either.
Don't get all twisted and start accusing folks here of "low road" behavior just because it may be different where you live.
stickhauler
Member
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- Mar 22, 2009
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- 538
I doubt Ohio's law on FTF sales are different from Texas, it's what responsible people do. This bogus "living off the grid" attitude of many responses bothers me more than what any law requires. Unless you are carrying concealed illegally
(with the exception of a few states) you're on a government list of people they would know own firearms. If you giving me basic information on the sale of a firearm is seen as a danger of identity theft in your world, you really need to get that foil hat made to a larger size, it's pinching off something. If you think I'm supplying your information, and proof you own a firearm to the Feds, you're really too damned paranoid.
My point is, this is a public forum, with posts available for view without ever registering as a member. If you are naive enough to believe the anti-gun side doesn't know about this forum, and likely read it regularly, there's a issue on that as well. They want to find proof that gun owners are acting irresponsibly, and ya'all gave them a truck load with the responses in this thread.
Of the guns I own, there is at most only one not on government paper as they were either bought through an FFL, or came into my possession via my use of a C&R license. Given the number of gun owners in this country, and the majority of us unwilling to yield on our second amendment rights, I have no fear the "jack-booted thugs" are coming to get our guns.
"Don't get all twisted" if laws are different where I live? Did you read this thread, and the responses of those who got radical about the idea of even buying a gun if a BOS was required? And you felt it necessary to call me out for "getting all twisted?" I stated my requirements for you to buy a gun in a private sale from me, if that's too strict, there isn't going to be a deal made.
If my mother was still living and bought a gun from me, I'd require the same. Regardless of any law.
(with the exception of a few states) you're on a government list of people they would know own firearms. If you giving me basic information on the sale of a firearm is seen as a danger of identity theft in your world, you really need to get that foil hat made to a larger size, it's pinching off something. If you think I'm supplying your information, and proof you own a firearm to the Feds, you're really too damned paranoid.
My point is, this is a public forum, with posts available for view without ever registering as a member. If you are naive enough to believe the anti-gun side doesn't know about this forum, and likely read it regularly, there's a issue on that as well. They want to find proof that gun owners are acting irresponsibly, and ya'all gave them a truck load with the responses in this thread.
Of the guns I own, there is at most only one not on government paper as they were either bought through an FFL, or came into my possession via my use of a C&R license. Given the number of gun owners in this country, and the majority of us unwilling to yield on our second amendment rights, I have no fear the "jack-booted thugs" are coming to get our guns.
"Don't get all twisted" if laws are different where I live? Did you read this thread, and the responses of those who got radical about the idea of even buying a gun if a BOS was required? And you felt it necessary to call me out for "getting all twisted?" I stated my requirements for you to buy a gun in a private sale from me, if that's too strict, there isn't going to be a deal made.
If my mother was still living and bought a gun from me, I'd require the same. Regardless of any law.
nalioth
Member
Don't assign your morals to others, please.
It's legal here in Texas (and some other states) to cash-n-carry, and many Texans do.
Just because you choose to do the paperwork dance, doesn't make it "irresponsible" for me to exercise my legal right to "cash-n-carry".
It's legal here in Texas (and some other states) to cash-n-carry, and many Texans do.
Just because you choose to do the paperwork dance, doesn't make it "irresponsible" for me to exercise my legal right to "cash-n-carry".
jimmyraythomason
Member
Morals has nothing to do with a BOS. It is just good business.
22-rimfire
Member
I agree. I just wish I did it every time I sold something or provided services.
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