Bird-Shot as a Self-Defense Load?

[-v-]

Best example for bird vs buck vs slug is as follows.

Take a fist-full of sand, a fist-full of coarse gravel, and a rock, all of the same weight. Now pitch them at 90 mph (speed of a MLB fast-ball) at someone.

When that someone is hit with a fist-full of sand, they will say a few expletives, and will be very functional.

Throw the fist-full of gravel at them and they will say "oww!" have some bruises, some bleeding and be disoriented.

Throw that one rock at them, and now they are screaming expletives and are on the ground very not happy.

If you don't believe me, get a friend, some gravel, sand, and a rock and try it out yourself.

As for bird-shot acting like a semi-solid slug: It acts very much like a liquid. With each projectile acting like an independent object seeking the path of least resistance (hint: path of least resistance does NOT favor penetration. Human tissues are hard.)

+1 on Gryffydd. Do you really want to steak your life on a bunch of hits with 7ft-lbs of force? I think my BB gun puts out more energy than that!

 

[PJR]

I have taken porcupines and raccoons while bird hunting with #6 and #5 birdshot. Birdshot is very effective at three feet. The further back you go it becomes less so. Much beyond 25 feet and you are wasting your time.

I don't know about anyone else but if someone is trying to do me harm it's not in my plan to let them any closer than I have to. The first round up in my gun is #4 buckshot. The rest are Brenneke slugs.

 

[Guvnor]

I know the quail in that example wouldn't be hit with 1300 ft lbs. of energy because its likely 20-30 yards away and is only struck by a small number of pellets.

I was referring to 10-20 feet distance. When the shot has just barely left the wad and is in a big clump no bigger than a baseball. Yes its a couple hundred individual projectiles but they'd be hitting at practically the same instant. Correct me if im wrong but wouldnt this result in the individual pellet's energies combining?

After all, no one would accuse a buckshot load of only having the total energy of a single buck pellet.

I know birdshot will only go through a couple layers of sheetrock so I figure it gives me an extra safety margin. Im willing to trade some stopping power for that margin of safety.

 

[Tacbandit]

#4 buckshot...the only way to fly

 

[cookekdjr]

I have seen buckshot fail to stop a person. In fact, it failed miserably.

I have not seen birdshot fail. In fact, the bad guy walked a few feet and fell over dead. He bled out, and fast. No one wound was fatal. He just bled fast from a bunch of tiny wounds.

I have not seen enough shotgun wounds to say with certainty what works best. But I have seen enought to know that buckshot is not a sure thing. I'd rather have a .40 pistol. I've also seen enough to know that birdshot, at typical gunfight ranges, is a scary thing.

 

[buck460XVR]

The point was that someone supposedly as respected as Lee Ermey on a supposedly respectable tv show on a respected channel just tossed a load of bullsh*t in the viewers' faces. If you can't expect honesty and integrity from Lee Ermey and The History Channel, who can you expect it from?

richard

I lost a little respect for Mr. Ermey the time he hit himself in the head with the recoiling .44mag. Now that was funny.

 

[ArmedBear]

AB, if you hit that quail at 20 feet, all you get is feathers. Even with #9 shot.

This is simply not true.

A clay bird at skeet station 8? Yes, it can simply disappear in the air.

A real bird at the same distance? Nope.

How do I know? We were training puppies and having a hell of a time keeping Bobwhites alive long enough to shoot them. The dog pointed a dead one. For training purposes (LOL) I had the dog's owner toss it up in the air, and I blasted it with 7.5 shot. It was a bit messy, but it was by no means "just feathers." The dog started learning to mark and retrieve with it. And that's a pen-raised bobwhite, not the kind of wild Valley or Gambel's quail I've ever hunted in the West -- much tougher.

I've shot a few close in while hunting, but won't swear that I hit them with the center of the pattern. That dead one, I hit with the center of the pattern, and close.

 

[lefteyedom]

My view...

So physics are hard and fast laws, but surely we can count on the sound of raching the shotgun to cause the threat to flee?

You can count on nothing, It is a fact that the sound of a pump shotgun ratcheting has caused people to change their course of action. This does not mean that it will cause all people to turn and run. But if some (or many) flee then that is positive.

Pain is not really a factor during the heat of an attack. The body's own Adrenalin production will over ride "pain" for duration of a high stress attack.

Major blood loss will cause someone to go into shock. The classic knife attack to the inner thigh is very effective for a reason. That said, how long does it take for someone to kill another person? Surely less than 20 seconds.
I really don't care if the person live or dies as long as their ability to attack is removed. Only by cutting the neural pathways can an attacker quickly neutralized.
If you really want to get gory then decapitation is the surest method of stopping an attack. Short of a sharp sword a firearm able to destroy the brain/ neural pathway is surest means of stopping a human.

For a Shotgun slugs would be best. Large shot (buck, bb ect) would follow next.

For HD in my humble view a good carbine would be best, then a shotgun and last a pistol.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

We need to stop using small birds as examples as they are only a few inches across, the max depth of penetration for birdshot. How many times have you eaten a dove/quail breast and bit a pellet? Thats only about 1" of penetration, wowwie.

 

[GojuBrian]

If you have an elderly person or the like who is scared of the recoil teach them to hold the shotgun under their arm, up against a solid wall.

I use 00bk, but I want to be sure of my backstop. From my bedroom it would be the fireplace on the left of the far wall.

 

[ArmedBear]

We need to stop using small birds as examples as they are only a few inches across, the max depth of penetration for birdshot. How many times have you eaten a dove/quail breast and bit a pellet? Thats only about 1" of penetration, wowwie.

That's why I DO use them as examples. That's one reason I'd never use birdshot for self-defense.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

Just because a johnny-house quail gets destroyed under a hail of #8 from a full choke, don't be fooled that by moving up to #6's its gonna pack the mail at 20 feet from a cylinder choke or any choke for that matter. Would you feel comfortable hunting large game with #6's? How about a leapord? Try that trick and see who comes off best.

 

[ArmedBear]

RSVP2RIP-

You read my posts backwards. I am most adamantly AGAINST using birdshot for self-defense, EVER.

And as I wrote, #7.5 at short range doesn't even do that much damage to a quail. It was someone else who said you'd have nothing but feathers. I wrote that I've tried it, and you still have a bird there.

Nobody with bird-hunting experience and an IQ over 25 would ever use birdshot for self-defense, unless he was attacked by a public-land pot farmer while out hunting grouse and didn't have any other ammo.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

I was reitterating what you said, sorry for the confusion.

 

[Guvnor]

I need to stop getting involved in these birdshot vs. buckshot threads. Its always a big can of worms that gets opened.

 

[Gryffydd]

After all, no one would accuse a buckshot load of only having the total energy of a single buck pellet.

when it comes to penetration that's exactly what it is. The fact that the whole load has 1300ft lbs doesn't help any of the individual pellets penetrate whether there is 9 of them or 170 of them makes no difference.

 

[inSight-NEO]

I need to stop getting involved in these birdshot vs. buckshot threads. Its always a big can of worms that gets opened.

I feel your pain. Why Im going here is a mystery...but, here it goes!

Personally, I find it somewhat interesting that, when comparing buckshot to birdshot, so many refer to various rounds in terms of their effectiveness when hunting. I wonder...whats the point? I mean, lets be honest, (for HD) we are dealing with using such rounds on another human being; one who may be lightly or heavily clothed, very thin or very heavy, possibly hopped up on drugs, just as skilled at killing as you are, etc.

Birdshot or buckshot....Either one is better than putting an unloaded weapon to the task. If all I had were birdshot, Id use it without hesitation. After all, having nothing would be much, much worse.

Personally, I prefer Low Recoil 00 Buckshot as I find it more than capable of "all around" effectiveness (vs. birdshot) while somewhat minimizing "over penetration" often associated with "standard" 00 Buckshot. Plus, its easy to shoot and helps me keep "on target" just a bit better. Besides, given the findings at "the box of truth," even full bore 00 Buck is not nearly as "scary" at penetration when compared to many popular HD handgun loads.

Since this decision has been made, I have put my ammo selection behind me and have spent the majority of my time familiarizing myself with the weapon, patterning my chosen load, improving my shooting ability, learning how to think "proactively" in terms of a potential HD encounter, etc. To me, these have been much more beneficial at preparing me for "whatever may come" vs. worrying about my ammo choice.

Im not saying that ammo considerations are mute and unnecessary; far from it. Just try not to get caught up in this stuff too much.

Focus on learning how to hit and not so much on what is being fired (all within reason, of course). After all, if you cant hit it, you cant stop it.

Stay safe.

 

[Gunfighter123]

The story from MyFoxHouston:


Quote:
HOUSTON - Five-year-old Simon Hughes stands three foot something and 44 pounds dripping wet, but like many kids in the piny woods of Texas, he can handle a gun, a skill he's been practicing for over a year.

His father Scott Hughes says there's good reason for the early training.

"Everything on the ranch will either bite you or stick you," he explains.

To make his point, the elder Hughes walks to the marshy edge of his property where under murky water a dangerous predator has lurked, largely undetected for a good chunk of a half century. Call it long running luck that would run out for the creature with a single bite into a baited hook and a face-to-face encounter with a 5-year-old.

"It come out, the biggest alligator I've ever seen," says young Simon of the highly hostile reptile, twenty times his size.

His father Scott had a different description.

"Like a Tyrannosaurs Rex or something," he says.

In a flash Simon brought his single barrel, 4-10 shotgun to bear and blasted.

"Simon was a champ, couldn't ask for any better. He was just fearless," recalls Chuck Cotton, a veteran guide and family friend who witnessed the shot.

The small charge of bird shot hit the brain of the 800-pound reptile.

"He did his death roll," says Simon of the second biggest alligator ever taken in Texas.

"I guess it's in my blood," says the kindergartner of his shooting skill.

We found proof a few miles down the road in Goodrich where Simon has suddenly become the most famous of it's 240 residents.

The town is where Simon's grandparents have run the same catfish joint for the past 27 years.

"If I'd known they was in a rowboat out there with that gator I don't think I could function," says Simon's grandmother, June Hughes whose own hunting trophies hang with those of family members on nearly every square foot of the restaurant's walls.

Back in the kitchen, Simon's grandfather "Pop" says he's got plans for all that gator meat.

"I'll probably cook up some for the family," he says with a laugh.

Turns out Simon has earned himself something of a nickname that's likely to outlast this brief stretch in the spot light."

"Gator bait," he says and smiles.

I guess nobody told that Gator that BIRDSHOT was not good for anything but BIRDS !!!

 

[herkyguy]

pump action shotgun, magazine tube extension, 10 rds of birdshot.

Self Defense step 1: The gun makes the unmistakeable pump-action sound when a round is chambered. Is the bad guy gonna engage after hearing that?
Self Defense step 2: The gun, despite its pitiful load of birdshot, still goes BANG. Again, is the intruder gonna advance after hearing that?
Self Defense step 3: I don't care if all that comes out of is tiny little grains of sand, it's crap getting thrown in the intruder's face. There are easier targets than a homeowner pointing the business end of a shotgun at the bad guy. Is he really gonna want to continue?
Self Defense step 3: I've got ten rounds and no recoil. I can pump so much birdshot at an intruder so fast he will drown with a mouthful of lead.

seriously, are there that many home invasions where the intruder continues the break-in after the homeowner fires a weapon? plenty of .22s have stopped home invasions, yet we continue to argue that caliber saves lives. guns save lives. birdshot, buckshot, whatever. .22 or .45.......it is the mere possession of a gun and the appropriate knowledge of how to use it that keeps us safe nine times out of ten.

 

[chuckusaret]

snooperman, do you have a reference for the Navy using BB shot for combat?

Don't know about the Navy but I sometimes carried a 12 gauge shotgun in Vietnam====000, 00 buck and slugs. I have also carried the M16 with the M203 40 mm grenade launcher loaded with buckshot.

Post #120 is out in left field IMO.

(1) Racking the gun gives your position away
(2) The bang is the signal for the armed BG to prepare for battle
(3) At 15 plus yards birdshot seldom penatrates several layers of dungaree style clothing. I have been shot accidently with #8 birdshot at about 20yds with no major injury. My clothing was long johns, levi shirt, wool sweater and hunting jacket. Four pellets went thru the clothing and just penatrated the skin on my back.



__________________

 

[JShirley]

I guess nobody told that Gator that BIRDSHOT was not good for anything but BIRDS !!!

I guess nobody told a poster that home invaders are not usually on a hook and swimming towards the home defender! Or that alligators are the only large animals in North America routinely hunted with small game WEAPONS !!!




John

 

[mgkdrgn]

(3) At 15 plus yards birdshot seldom penatrates several layers of dungaree style clothing.

A non-factor in this discussion. The vast vast vast majority (95%+) of SD shootings take place at 10 FEET or less. That includes indoor and outdoor shootings.

As the shotgun is mainly an HD weapon (tough to CCW a Rem 870), how many 15 YARD shots do you have inside your house?

The purpose of your defense is not to kill, but to end the attack. I will grant you that birdshot is not normally a "man stopper" by any means. That said, a 12 guage face full of birdshot at any indoor range I can get in my house will certainty "end the attack". Tough to "press home the attack" when you are blind and have no nose.

A -better- choice, IMHO would be a BB size or #1 buckshot. Nice compromise between pattern and penetration. Slugs have WAY too much penetration, again IMHO, to be good choices for HD. Typical stick built frame house is -not- going to contain a slug. Interior walls it won't even notice.

 

[JShirley]

Slugs have WAY too much penetration, again IMHO, to be good choices for HD

And what evidence are you basing this on? Don't give us opinion, give us evidence.

 

[hammerklavier]

Everybody should use bird shot. There are so many pellets it is impossible to miss. One homeowner once killed seven gangmembers who had broken into his house with a single shot -- and they were in three different rooms!

Birdshot can tell the intent of the criminal, if they aren't serious it will only hurt them and cause them to run away, if they have murderous intent, it will kill them instantly, and if you shoot an innocent person by mistake, it will simply bounce off!

African bull elephants have been known to turn tail and run at the sound of birdshot being chambered into a mossberg pump shotgun, whilst the sound of buckshot being chambered will only make them angry!

I hear that an Iraqi insurgent once took out an M1 tank with number 7 1/2 birdshot. It's so small that it gets sucked into the vents and then causes a fire in the turbine engine.

 

[Fred Fuller]

After all, if you cant hit it, you cant stop it.

That's granite- worthy, right there.

lpl