Bird-Shot as a Self-Defense Load?

[Gunfighter123]

I guess nobody told a poster that home invaders are not usually on a hook and swimming towards the home defender! Or that alligators are the only large animals in North America routinely hunted with small game WEAPONS !!!

Yeah and the FACT IS STILL that a shot of .410 BIRDSHOT DID KILL a 800lb. Gator --LOL

In my first reply to this post --- I CLEARLY stated that IMHO , having the FIRST ROUND WITH LARGE Birdshot , FOLLOWED BY Buckshot and then Slugs was what I feel to be the best INDOOR LOADS for the SG ----- then I got "flamed and made fun of " by "the guy from Bumfart Idaho" and others Fudds that try to use "humor" to belittle other forum members.

 

[mgkdrgn]

And what evidence are you basing this on? Don't give us opinion, give us evidence.

I believe it was Guns and Ammo TV that did an actual test on this not all that long ago. They rigged up 3 interior and 1 exterior wall. Slugs punched through all 4 like a hot knife through butter.

Then they tried a car. Another "through and through", cleanly through one door and out the other side, also through the door.

When you let that lead loose, YOU are responsible for where it goes. In suburbia (or higher density housing) that slug that you miss with is likely to go skipping off through the neighborhood ... assuming it doesn't hit any un-intended targets inside your home.

If you have a brick exterior ... great, assuming you don't exit a window your neighbors are safe. If your nearest neighbor is beyond yelling distance ... great. But, unless your interior walls are brick too ....

 

[JShirley]

So...once again, you are planning your home defense based on what ammunition to miss with. Brilliant. I'm done with this thread.

 

[Spirit 1]

Herkguy:
"pump action shotgun, magazine tube extension, 10 rds of birdshot.

Self Defense step 1: The gun makes the unmistakeable pump-action sound when a round is chambered. Is the bad guy gonna engage after hearing that?
Self Defense step 2: The gun, despite its pitiful load of birdshot, still goes BANG. Again, is the intruder gonna advance after hearing that?
Self Defense step 3: I don't care if all that comes out of is tiny little grains of sand, it's crap getting thrown in the intruder's face. There are easier targets than a homeowner pointing the business end of a shotgun at the bad guy. Is he really gonna want to continue?
Self Defense step 3: I've got ten rounds and no recoil. I can pump so much birdshot at an intruder so fast he will drown with a mouthful of lead."

What if, just what if:

SD 1?] YES
SD 2?] YES
SD 3?] YES
SD 3-4 ?] Before you chamber a second round he raises his stolen 44 magnum and blows your head off?

seriously, are there that many home invasions where the intruder continues the break-in after the homeowner fires a weapon?

Yes, very, very many. Read 'Armed Citizen' columns in the NRA national publication 'American Rifleman'.

plenty of .22s have stopped home invasions, yet we continue to argue that caliber saves lives.

Plenty have not.

guns save lives. birdshot, buckshot, whatever. .22 or .45.......it is the mere possession of a gun and the appropriate knowledge of how to use it that keeps us safe nine times out of ten.

Doubtful, and the tenth time could be the first time in sequence!

The knowledgeable argument is actually that caliber & shot placement save lives.

 

[RandKL]

Yes, very, very many. Read 'Armed Citizen' columns in the NRA national publication 'American Rifleman'.

Firearms are used in self defense on the order of 1.2 MILLION times per year. American Rifleman rounds up a couple of dozen of the most exciting ones. The rest, all 1,199,988 of them, happened exactly as Herk said.

They have no idea whatsoever that a guy packed full of heroin or crack can have his leg cut off with a dull handsaw and not complain. They simply cannot comprehend a single round of 12ga #8 birdshot not completely incapacitating a person. They have no idea just how bad some bad guys can be at 6'6" 345 lbs loaded on drugs, alcohol, brain damage & self-induced insanity.

You're planning, or should I say almost fantacizing about the .00001% of fire arms self defense that fits your criteria. If you plan for *that* tiny segment, why not go all out and plan for the 7 foot ex-NFL linebacker on steroids and pain killers and in full body armor and start recommending APAT rounds as standard ammo?

Your forebearers, chances are if you live in the US, staked their lives on a .36cal black powder pistol at one time. That same .36cal black powder pistol is, today, outgunned by a lowly 10/22 loaded with Velocitors. Human beings didn't get tougher in the intervening years, they got dumber. Today, thanks to the internet, some dufus in nonameville can make up some "factoid" and it'll be accepted as gospel by tonight. I mean look at all the .50cal pistols there are today.

Save yourself some grief the next time that NFL washout on drugs comes around. Keep your shottie loaded with alternating Dragon's Breath, Terminator, and AP rounds to cover all the bases. You never know.

rich

 

[Spirit 1]

Well, you said a lot but I'm not real sure it made a particular point.

As for your reply, I guess the old saying is true: 'Throw a rock into a pack of dogs and the one that yelps is the one that got hit'.

"You're planning, or should I say almost fantacizing about the .00001% of fire arms self defense that fits your criteria. If you plan for *that* tiny segment, why not go all out and plan for the 7 foot ex-NFL linebacker on steroids and pain killers and in full body armor and start recommending APAT rounds as standard ammo?"

As I had made clear in my post, folks that believe BIRD-shot is the answer for home defense, who cannot imagine their perfect plan not working out, are like a butterfly flitting along the edges of reality. They may not live much longer than one either, if things get real serious real fast.

As for my ancestors I care not at all what they defended themselves with. They're all dead.

"Save yourself some grief the next time that NFL washout on drugs comes around. Keep your shottie loaded with alternating Dragon's Breath, Terminator, and AP rounds to cover all the bases. You never know."

I don't have a 'shottie'. I have a dead serious shotgun that is 100% suitable for any requirement I put it to, no doubts, no questions and no BIRD-shot. Why? Because personal defense with a shotgun isn't about birds.

 

[herkyguy]

despite the differing opinions, everyone makes a good point.

 

[inSight-NEO]

In my first reply to this post --- I CLEARLY stated that IMHO , having the FIRST ROUND WITH LARGE Birdshot , FOLLOWED BY Buckshot and then Slugs was what I feel to be the best INDOOR LOADS for the SG ----- then I got "flamed and made fun of " by "the guy from Bumfart Idaho" and others Fudds that try to use "humor" to belittle other forum members.

Mixing ammo...bad idea IMHO. Not to flame you brother, just my 2 cents. After all, its sometimes tough enough becoming intimately familiar with one type of load, much less 3. When one is experiencing an adrenaline rush of maximum proportions, things tend to get mixed up. Therefore, Im a strong proponent of finding a specific load, practicing with it (almost exclusively) and then making sure that its the ONLY load found within the gun (for HD).

I mean, why start off with birdshot, then go to buckshot, followed up with a slug? Why not just start off with buckshot (at least) in the first place? Stopping an attack as quickly as possible is of primary importance here. After all, you may not get the chance to fire off that second round.

Of course, this is where the fundamentals (ie., practice) become much more necessary than the chosen load.

Regardless, its been said before, the first shot should count the most. Beyond that, it basically means either a). you missed or b). you failed to stop the threat. Neither scenario sounds great to me.

Start hard and end hard. To progress from less lethal to most lethal (when your life and/or the lives of your loved ones are at stake) makes no sense to me.

 

[RandKL]

Well, you said a lot but I'm not real sure it made a particular point.

Really? I thought I was crystal clear.

Well, you've expressed the point that you load heavy the way you do just in case that 00001% happens....I pointed out that that .00001% was *only* .00001% of all self defense deadly force situations. If you plan for that small a number just because it's possible, why not plan for for the other equally unlikely scenarios?

As I had made clear in my post, folks that believe BIRD-shot is the answer for home defense, who cannot imagine their perfect plan not working out,

Yes, you did make it clear. That's why I replied to your post. So why do you think *your* plan is any more perfect than theirs? They plan for what they see as the most likely as do you. Your agenda, their agenda, everyone has an agenda. Stop trying to tell them theirs is wrong.

rich

 

[zhyla]

Gusy, this is getting nowhere. How's about finding something else to argue about. There's a rifle vs shotgun thread you may enjoy...

 

[mgkdrgn]

So...once again, you are planning your home defense based on what ammunition to miss with. Brilliant. I'm done with this thread.

Well, some of us don't claim to be Wild Bill Hickok accurate in a gunfight, and actually care about possibly killing our family members and / or neighbors. Or maybe that's just me.

 

[Gunfighter123]

Mixing ammo...bad idea IMHO. Not to flame you brother, just my 2 cents. After all, its sometimes tough enough becoming intimately familiar with one type of load, much less 3. When one is experiencing an adrenaline rush of maximum proportions, things tend to get mixed up. Therefore, Im a strong proponent of finding a specific load, practicing with it (almost exclusively) and then making sure that its the ONLY load found within the gun (for HD).

Hello Insight-Neo -------------- First off , I can tell you are not out to "flame me " and for that I say "Thank You " !!!
I have shot IPSC/IDPA/Action 3 Gun/SASS/Steel Challenge type matches for 20+ years and have shot upwards of 50,000 rds. of Buck,Slugs,and Birdshot in matches and maybe another 50,000/70,000 in practice.

In another post I stated why I chose to load my SG as I do ---- First round to go BOOM is a Hi-Brass #4 Birdshot ----- I do not live in the Taj Mahal and ANYWHERE in my house , we are really talking FEET and not YARDS. Even with the shortest brl. I own , at 15 FEET the shot string is around 10/15 INCHES wide. With years of practice behind me , I can get off a AIMED 2nd shot in less then 1/2 of a second. With a semi-auto , my split times are around 1/4 second. ------- a face or center of mass hit at 15 FEET -- WILL give me enough time for a 2nd shot. My 2nd thru 5th shots are OO Buck and the last two or three are Slugs --- Slugs are in case the BoogieMan ducks behind my freezer etc. or worst case , the fight ends up outdoors.

One of the BEST THINGS about a SG is that it does take a variety of ammo --- Slugs , different size Buckshot or Birdshot , Sandbag/Rubber Buck-Slugs/Tear Gas/Non-Leathal , and many other kinds. NOTE --- not all these types of shells will work with a semi-auto but almost all will work with a pump/double brl. etc.

Neo --- thanks again for your CIVIL reply.


EDIT --- OOPS , REASON for the FIRST round birdshot is a loved one may be on the other side of the person you want to shoot --- ie. sleeping in another room etc.

 

[Bullethead67]

My old lady coming out of the bathroom with the old single shot didnt scare my drunk brother...

But that one round of #8 through kitchen ceiling sent him out of there in a hurry.

Bullethead

 

[AKElroy]

This is yet another issue that I have changed my views on. I shoot shotguns alot, and I have very informally experimented with a wide range of loads. I grew up hunting & plinking on my grandfathers ranch; he had an area that had been used as a junk dump for 50 years. Dozens of refrigerators, washer/dryers, TV, you name it. I shot that stuff with every imaginable cartrige & load.

I practiced with fruit, mellons, you name it. Up close, nothing LOOKED more effective than 3" 2oz 4 or 6 shot. Looks can be deceiving, and I now keep 00 in the 12 ga next to the bed. After seeing numerous videos & analysis showing the extremely limited penetration, I changed my mind.

My dove lease is overrun with hogs, and even when I used to hold the view that birdshot is suitable for defence, I still carried a pair of 00 cartriges in my front pocket. For some reason, facing down a 150-200 hog with birdshot just failed to make any sense. Doesn't make sense for people, either.

 

[AKElroy]

Self Defense step 1: The gun makes the unmistakeable pump-action sound when a round is chambered. Is the bad guy gonna engage after hearing that?
Self Defense step 2: The gun, despite its pitiful load of birdshot, still goes BANG. Again, is the intruder gonna advance after hearing that?

A reasonable person woudn't. Then again, a reasonable person woudn't break into my house with me in it.

 

[RandKL]

How's about finding something else to argue about

Well put, Z!

I'm out of it.

r

 

[Kindrox]

Your agenda, their agenda, everyone has an agenda. Stop trying to tell them theirs is wrong.

I think there are some insecure people on the board who cannot tolerate different choices.

 

[Eric F]

I want to post before thread lock here.

1. Bird shot is not the best choice for interior hd.
2. Slugs are not the best chouice for interior hd
3. Large buck shot (ooo) is not the best choice for interior hd

point use what you have save up and purchase loads proven to work and not over penetrate.

Another bad idea........load stagering 1.bird shot 2.bb's 3.#4 buck 4. 00 buck 5. slug

When stuff happens round counting goes out the window So now Did I fire 5 or 6 shots? In all the confusion I lost count. You got to ask your self one question. Do I feel lucky?

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I'll keep my SXS 12ga mag 'coach' loaded r. bbl hi-brass #6, l. bbl 3"mag 00. if in doubt - give the bg both bbls!

 

[68caliberkiller]

Consider poor man's body armour and scenarios

at least #4 bird turkey load or BB or heavier if you're that worried about penetration. 3" mag if you and your gun can handle it. If you read enough threads here you'll find people saying #4 buck ain't reliable enough for penetration.
Are you thinking #6 dove could be reliable enough to stop an intruder with malicious intent? Not all thieves are cowards. Some are ex-cons who spent a lot of time working out and fighting other violent criminals!

Wall penetration is only an issue if you miss!!
Clothing penetration is an issue if you hit. If TV is your best source for facts... Burglar or burglars will be wearing gloves, a black hoodie, jean jacket, or starter jacket and a ski mask. Possibly armed, knife, club or GUN. Worse, YOU DON'T KNOW!
Imaging this situation, 4am, asleep, a very loud noise wakes you. Your house is dark. You have home advantage but they have the element of suprise.
What do you do?
Personally between my life and their death I'd hope there's buckshot in my gun.