Bird Shot for SD?

[C0untZer0]

In the 1986 Miami Shootout, Michael Platt fired his .357 Magnum revolver at agents Ronald Risner and Gilbert Orrantia, and was hit by return fire from Agent Orrantia. The bullet penetrated Platt's right forearm, fractured the radius bone and exited the forearm. This wound caused Platt to drop his revolver.

There are probably thousands of shootings where one of the parties is shot in the hands or the arm. (Actually, Agent Hanlon was shot in the hand in the Miami Shootout). You can make a case that someone shot in the forearm with birdshot might drop their weapon, but shattering an arm bone makes it physically difficult to continue to use a weapon with the arm that is broken. Having an assailant drop their weapon is better than not, but forcing an assailant to take time to switch hands is better than having the assailant continue to fire at you.

 

[j1]

SELF DEFENSE. Not lets hurt the perp an indeterminate amount.

 

[stonecutter2]

Good luck explaining to the authorities that you met the legal justification for the use of deadly force, but intentionally used less effective ammo to inflict more pain and suffering.

Or you know, you could just say someone broke into your house, so you shot them with your shotgun. And it was loaded. With whatever.

 

[Devonai]

At which point you should probably keep the fact that you used birdshot intentionally to yourself.

 

[Schwing]

I can't speak as to the ballistic pros and cons of bird shot but... In my own job, I am, unfortunately, privy to homicide and suicide information. I have personally seen 3 suicides performed with shotguns loaded with bird shot. All three were spectacularly successful. In these scenarios, they were all point blank range to the head.

My Dad worked as an O.R. nurse both in the military and in the private sector. I had this conversation with him some time back. According to his experiences working on gunshot wounds, shotgun wounds were fatal (either immediately or due to complications later) far more often than handgun wounds, regardless of the shot.

He saw several bird shot wounds in his career. His opinion was that it made a far bigger mess long term because the wounded party didn't often die immediately but tended to die from complications like infection down the road. I guess my takeaway was that it will probably do the job at close range (15 feet or less) but wouldn't be my first choice.

IMHO, defensive use of any weapon is based on stopping the threat as quickly as possible while minimizing the risk to myself or my loved ones. It doesn't do me much good if the bad guy dies 3 days later in the hospital if he has enough time to do damage to me or my family before then.

 

[MSgtEgress]

My door greeter round is 2 3/4 Remington Premier hull with 2 - .54 cal soft lead round balls (about 1/2 oz each) over 36 g of blue dot. It has about 1350fps at the muzzle and keeps both balls in the center of mass out to 20 yds.

 

[strambo]

There is a huge difference between a contact shot (suicide) and "close range" up to across the room distance.

A contact shot to the head or chest doesn't leave any room for spread at all, the wad and mass of pellets hits together along with a hole blown in the tissue due to the gasses.

Add just a few feet and we have shot spread and hitting individually. It makes a messy wound, but penetration will be less than optimal.

So, what happens with a contact shot can't be extrapolated as being similar beyond contact range since the shell opens up, shot spreads and there aren't any gasses blowing a hole in tissue as well.

 

[C0untZer0]

I do think birdshot opens up quite a bit within a few inches of tissue - at least from the gel tests I've seen

I think the main difference between a suicide and most SD/HD situations is that the syicidal person puts the muzzle an inch or two away from brain tissue and even 3 inches of penetration is going to shut down the brain and cause death


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[roo_ster]

No. Buck or slugs for SD.

Birdshot at distances beyond contact may not penetrate deeply enough to incapacitate via exsanguination, CNS disruption, or skeletal structure destruction in a time frame relevant to self defense.

 

[lpsharp88]

If bird shot is all you have, or all that you can handle recoil wise, then go for it I guess. There are much better tools for the job though

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If bird shot is all you have, or all that you can handle recoil wise, then go for it I guess. There are much better tools for the job though

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- most disasters happen because people PLAN to have disasters.

If you have to stop a threat with birdshot, it's because you PLANNED to only have birdshot. You could just as easily plan to have buckshot.

 

[Schwing]

There is a huge difference between a contact shot (suicide) and "close range" up to across the room distance.

This is 100% true. From the massive tissue damage at such a close range, even the muzzle blast plays into it as well.

 

[Tentwing]

Schwing ,

Your dad is spot on. I have spent over a quarter century working ER's and Trauma centers . I noticed over the years that the domestic abuse weapon of choice in southern Georgia was " Grandpa's old 410 shotgun " . I'm not sure why, but it was almost always Grandpa's and usually bird shot (at what I would assume was close range) from a break barrel single shot 410. At least that was their story

We all would kind of keep track of this sort of thing. ( You would be surprised what a bunch of third shift ER nurses would find interesting ) Out of 34 shootings 33 of those either came to the ER in a body bag left the ER in a body bag , or left the OR in a body bag. Only about half a dozen or so even survived long enough to go to the OR . I'm no math whizz, but that's a kill ratio of over 95%

The one survivor that I remember caught it in the right butt cheek from his " baby mama" Even though he was shot in the butt he still wound up losing a kidney and a testicle . I was younger and found it strange at the time that a little better than half of the shooters were women. Also I noticed that women would usually shoot boyfriends over money not cheating. ( sometimes both) The male shooters were usually drunk and usually shot their brothers or brother in laws over drugs or they both were after the same woman.

Based on personal experiences the lethality of the 410 will continue to receive my respect . Tentwing

 

[entropy]

There is a huge difference between a contact shot (suicide) and "close range" up to across the room distance.

A contact shot to the head or chest doesn't leave any room for spread at all, the wad and mass of pellets hits together along with a hole blown in the tissue due to the gasses.

Add just a few feet and we have shot spread and hitting individually. It makes a messy wound, but penetration will be less than optimal.

So, what happens with a contact shot can't be extrapolated as being similar beyond contact range since the shell opens up, shot spreads and there aren't any gasses blowing a hole in tissue as well.

As I mentioned in a previous post here, I saw the results of a contact shot (under the chin) from an attempted suicide with birdshot. It wasn't pretty, (hamburger would be an appropriate comparison), but he did survive miserably for the last two weeks of his life before succumbing.

 

[j1]

It is a great load if you are being attacked by birds.