Bisley vs plow handle

[fastbolt]

You shouldn't feel anything in your wrists at all. The elbows should be your only articulation -- cuts down on wear and tear. The rubber grips change the grip frame geometry and that is why they work so well.

When you watch enough folks shoot Magnum revolvers for enough years, and watch how many of them seemingly allow their grip technique to allow torquing stress to be experienced by their wrists (even if they don't realize it's happening), it's not a surprise when older shooters start to complain about their wrists, along with their elbows and shoulders.

It's not unusual for some Magnum SA revolver shooters to claim that allowing their wrists to absorb some of the recoil force (via rotation) makes their heavy recoiling Magnum revolvers more controllable. I learned to keep my wrist locked with my forearm, whether shooting 1 or 2-handed (so I could rapidly thumb cock the hammer with my support hand thumb), although there were some of the heaviest recoiling (sometimes referred to as Ruger-Only) loads that were much easier to shoot if the grip rotated a bit in my hand. That didn't seem to help when shooting a Freedom Arms .454, though, as that factory grip frame just hammered my bare palm after a couple cylinder loads.

I have some video of me shooting a couple of early S&W .500 Magnum revolvers (Demo guns brought to our range), wearing a short sleeved t-shirt. Even with the cushioning grip, in slow motion you can see a wave of shock trmeors running up my arm from my wrist, through my forearm, along my upper arm, disappearing under the t-shirt sleeves, but then ending up in my lower neck (think being visible in the SC muscle).

And shooting the .500's felt much easier on me than the .454 ... or the 360PD, loaded with 125gr Magnum loads.

Then, there's always "Magnum Thumb" after a long afternoon of shooting Magnum wheelies.

 

[.38 Special]

I find that when I am gripping the big guns hard enough to keep them out of my face, my wrists are automatically locked.

I also find that as I age I can't really find a reason to shoot the big guns!

 

[Aim1]

I do not have any guns with birdshead grips, but here is a pair of good sixguns showing Ruger's Bisley and plowhandle grips.

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The stainless gun is a New Vaquero in .45 Colt. It was purchased to be my "indoor range" gun to be used with plated bullets. Our local indoor range is not well ventilated and I do not like to breathe the lead and lube fumes from cast bullets. I also do not enjoy cleaning copper out of bores, so I use just this one gun with copper and clean it out every once in a while. Leather is from El Paso Saddlery.

The blued gun is one of the early Lipsey's flat tops in .44 Special, shown in its Milt Sparks holster. I have had some pretty nice guns over the years, but after firelapping and a trigger job, this seems to be the gun that jumps into my hands whenever I am preparing to go to the range. While I claim to prefer plowhandle grips in general, this is one those good guns that just seems to really want to hit for me. It is the one that I immediately think of whenever a "if you could only have one gun" thread pops up.

<edit> My wife is from Taiwan, in case anybody is wondering why my guns are always propped up with chopsticks!

Those grips look almost identical. Which one is which?

 

[.38 Special]

Those grips look almost identical. Which one is which?

The blued gun is the Bisley.

 

[BobWright]

From about 1984, Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, Super Blackhawk grip frame. Load was a 350 gr. cast loaded with IMR-4227 for about 1300 f.p.s. This is about the heaviest load I've shot in a Ruger.




Bob Wright

 

[Reinz]

When you watch enough folks shoot Magnum revolvers for enough years, and watch how many of them seemingly allow their grip technique to allow torquing stress to be experienced by their wrists (even if they don't realize it's happening), it's not a surprise when older shooters start to complain about their wrists, along with their elbows and shoulders.
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I can testify to this!

I shot so many magnums and big bores that by the time I was 31 I had permanent bilateral nerve damage in my ring and pinky fingers, hands, wrists, elbows, and shoulders.

 

[MaxP]

I can testify yo this!

I shot so many magnums and big bores that by the time I was 31 I had permanent bilateral nerve damage in my ring and pinky fingers, hands, wrists, elbows, and shoulders.

Was the shoulder damage done by rifles? Trying to figure out how one can damage their shoulders shooting handguns.

 

[Aim1]

Yeah I put that photo in my first book, Big-Bore Revolvers. I just let my concentration slip for a moment because I became complacent and wham, the front sight tried to knock me out. Here is a still taken from the video showing just how much muzzle flip that revolver produced even with the brake.

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What gun and load was this?

 

[MaxP]

What gun and load was this?

A D-Max in .50 Alaskan. It weighed less than 4-lbs. That load was a 525 grain bullet right around 1,600 fps. It was brutal.

 

[Reinz]

Was the shoulder damage done by rifles? Trying to figure out how one can damage their shoulders shooting handguns.

Handguns I presume. I shot little with high powered rifles.

I am not versed on the mapping of nerves in the body. I’m just guessing the shock waves traveling up the arm just branched off to other nerves. However, the shoulder nerve damage was minimal compared to the fingers, hands, wrists, and elbows.

I will add that I have girly sized wrists. Men’s bracelets are always too large for me. And when I used to wear watches I ALWAYS had to have at least 2-4 links pulled out of the band.

 

[Aim1]

A D-Max in .50 Alaskan. It weighed less than 4-lbs. That load was a 525 grain bullet right around 1,600 fps. It was brutal.

Ouch.

 

[CraigC]

Here's Max shooting the .500 BFR. Please note that at no time did the sixgun knock his hat off.

 

[Targa]

From about 1984, Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, Super Blackhawk grip frame. Load was a 350 gr. cast loaded with IMR-4227 for about 1300 f.p.s. This is about the heaviest load I've shot in a Ruger.

That is well into .454 Casull territory and I am talking really well into .454 territory...

 

[MaxP]

There should be some side-by-side comparison pics of Bisley, Birdshead, and Plow Style grips in this thread!!!

Here you go. Bisley, top and plow handle, bottom.

 

[MaxP]

Here's the Magnum Research plow handle (top) and "Bisley" on the bottom.

 

[Aim1]

Here's the Magnum Research plow handle (top) and "Bisley" on the bottom.

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O, very different.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

There should be some side-by-side comparison pics of Bisley, Birdshead, and Plow Style grips in this thread!!!

Howdy

Glad to oblige. A 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Army with the standard 'plow handle' grip






A 1st Gen Bisley Colt. The original Bisley grip.






About 20 years when I was thinking of shooting Black Powder, everybody I talked to told me that the increased recoil would be unpleasant with a standard plow handle grip and I should get a Bisley. I was shooting Ruger 'original model' Vaqueros at the time. So I bought an 'original model' Vaquero with the Ruger version of the Bisley grip. Brought it to exactly one match, and then traded it on an Uberti Cattleman with the standard plow handle grip.

Now you guys with your .575 Elephant Gun cartridges in a revolver probably think a 45 Colt stuffed with FFg Black Powder under a 250 grain bullet is a mouse fart, but it ain't. It sure ain't the standard 'cowboy' loads.

It turns out I much preferred allowing the plow handle grip to rotate in my hand during recoil. This brought the hammer closer to my thumb so I could cock the hammer on the way down from recoil. And yes, I always curl my pinky under the grip. I discovered a long time ago that gripping a single action revolver that way brings my hand lower on the grip. This opens up a space of about 1/4" between the knuckle of my middle finger and the back of the trigger guard. The 1/4" of space prevents the trigger guard from whacking my knuckle in recoil.

 

[MaxP]

[QUOTE="Driftwood Johnson, post: 11447189, member]

Now you guys with your .575 Elephant Gun cartridges in a revolver probably think a 45 Colt stuffed with FFg Black Powder under a 250 grain bullet is a mouse fart, but it ain't. It sure ain't the standard 'cowboy' loads.
[/QUOTE]

Well it’s all relative. How fast is that 250 grain load moving?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I don't have a chronograph, but I suspect it is about 800 fps.

Yeah, it ain't an elephant gun bullet, but it ain't a mouse fart either. (Mouse Fart = 45 Colt rounds loaded down to 38 Special recoil level for CAS)

The only 44 Mag revolvers I have are an older S&W Model 29 and an old Three Screw Ruger Blackhawk. To tell you the truth I don't even remember if I have ever put any 44 Mags through the Ruger, probably only 44 Specials.

Yup, it's all relative.

I will add that I only shoot my Black Powder Colts one handed, so it rolling in my hand during recoil helps cock the hammer for the next shot.

 

[MaxP]

How much FFg are you stuffing in the cases?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Although the classic load in 45 Colt is often stated as 40 grains of Black Powder under a 250 grain bullet, modern solid head cases do not have as much powder capacity as the old Benet primed or Balloon Head cases.

My standard load is 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg. This works out to about 33.5 grains of powder. This amount allows me to compress the powder about 1/8" when I seat the bullet.






If I wanted to stuff 40 grains of powder into modern cases I would need to use a drop tube to settle the powder better, and I would need to compress it a lot more when I seated the bullet. I don't even know for sure if I could get 40 grains of powder into modern cases without it overflowing. I will have to try sometime. I do have some old Balloon Head cases, and I keep meaning to see how much powder they will hold. In any case (no pun intended) the drop tube strategy would not be very compatible with loading BP on my Hornady Lock & Load AP progressive press. This photo shows how much powder is in a case before seating a bullet. The bullet compresses the powder by about 1/8", which is plenty. (My goodness, this is an old photo. I only use Starline brass these days, and it does not have a cannelure on the brass.)






I don't really need to stuff 40 grains of powder into my loads, 33.5 grains makes plenty of smoke and recoil.

 

[.38 Special]

Driftwood, I bet you're guessing low on your velocity. I load 32 grains Swiss or Olde Eyensforde 2Fg into Starline cases with a 255 flat point for a touch over 900 fps from a five-and-a-half inch barrel. Obviously not a .460, but hotter than factory smokeless, and certainly enough for deer.

 

[Dave T]

Max,

I have loaded 40g of FFg, in NOS balloon head cases, behind a 255g RNFP. I chronographed them through the three standard barrel lengths offered by Colt, 7.5", 5.5", and 4.75". Results were 914 fps for the 7.5", 883 fps for the 5.5" and 865 fps for the 4.75".

I only had 50 balloon head cases and knew they wouldn't last through many reloads so I duplicated the performance with 36g of FFFg behind the same bullet in modern brass. The match directors at CAS shoots always complained I was knocking over their steel targets, particularly when I shot my 7-1/2" Cavalry Colt. I always told them real 19th Century Westerners would laugh themselves silly at their mouse fart "cowboy loads". (smile)

Dave