Black Bear...

[Vince Cyr]

Its my belief that anyone can screw up with any caliber, style of firearm, etc., but I'm amazed at those who forsake calibers like the 223 on the grounds that they have taken it as a mortal certainty that a disaster of some type WILL ensue. If all hunters operated within the limits of their skill and equipment, (yes, the arrow launching crowd too) there would be no need for these conversations. There would also be no misses or lost animals. I also firmly believe that the good marksman with the properly placed 223 has a better chance at both a quickly expired and successfully recovered animal than the guy who blows it for whatever reason and gut shoots a critter with a larger round.

^^^
This.
I learned to hunt mostly from old-time deer jackers. Not condoning what they did, but they probably know more about deer hunting than most, and are a resource that we should take advantage of. By and large, they preferred a well placed shot in the boiler room(not the head, believe it or not) with a 22 centerfire(22 hornet to 22-250) Now, this was with the ammo available in the 70s(mostly meant for varmints), not the actual large game loads available in most of those calibers today. They still learned to take deer in one shot ( cause they couldn't afford to go blasting away on deer without anybody noticing). Mostly, they liked "varmint" cartridges cause the guns are built with sub-moa accuracy in mind, as apposed to "minute of deer" accuracy, (in the 70s. Most modern guns are built better now). A 22 caliber "varmint" gun could put a bullet where they wanted it to go better than most of the "deer" guns available. And this attitude was prevalent enough that NY looked into it, and decided to legalize it.
Now, I went on this rant not to convince anybody of the 223's suitability on deer size game, cause believe it or not, that has been settled already. Tens of thousands of of deer are taken every year, legally, with guns in the 22 caliber family. If some people still aren't convinced, that is their problem. No, this rant was to give a little background on the sort of people I learned from.
Now, back to the question at hand, which was black bears. I haven't got much experience to draw on with hunting them. Like I said, not many people hunt them around here, as they are kinda a new development in this area. DEC just opened the season around here a couple of years ago, and until recently, there wasn't enough for it to matter. A few encounters have convinced me that the aren't much of a threat to people who pay attention to their surroundings, so I'm not worried about defending myself from one. I was just curious if an appropriate cartridge for deer(and pigs) could be appropriate for black bear.

 

[horsey300]

^^^
This.
I learned to hunt mostly from old-time deer jackers. Not condoning what they did, but they probably know more about deer hunting than most, and are a resource that we should take advantage of. By and large, they preferred a well placed shot in the boiler room(not the head, believe it or not) with a 22 centerfire(22 hornet to 22-250) Now, this was with the ammo available in the 70s(mostly meant for varmints), not the actual large game loads available in most of those calibers today. They still learned to take deer in one shot ( cause they couldn't afford to go blasting away on deer without anybody noticing). Mostly, they liked "varmint" cartridges cause the guns are built with sub-moa accuracy in mind, as apposed to "minute of deer" accuracy, (in the 70s. Most modern guns are built better now). A 22 caliber "varmint" gun could put a bullet where they wanted it to go better than most of the "deer" guns available. And this attitude was prevalent enough that NY looked into it, and decided to legalize it.
Now, I went on this rant not to convince anybody of the 223's suitability on deer size game, cause believe it or not, that has been settled already. Tens of thousands of of deer are taken every year, legally, with guns in the 22 caliber family. If some people still aren't convinced, that is their problem. No, this rant was to give a little background on the sort of people I learned from.
Now, back to the question at hand, which was black bears. I haven't got much experience to draw on with hunting them. Like I said, not many people hunt them around here, as they are kinda a new development in this area. DEC just opened the season around here a couple of years ago, and until recently, there wasn't enough for it to matter. A few encounters have convinced me that the aren't much of a threat to people who pay attention to their surroundings, so I'm not worried about defending myself from one. I was just curious if an appropriate cartridge for deer(and pigs) could be appropriate for black bear.

Are black bear generally classified with deer and hog? Yes. I meant no offense to anyone including you, whether you're a qualified hunter is something only you can answer, I also don't question whether the .223 is viable for scenario x y or z. I simply won't assume you know what terminal performance to expect from your cartridge choice. A YouTube video of one guy taking big hogs with a specific load doesn't qualify every Tom dick and Harry with a .223 as a good hunter. Yes the cartridge is capable. Should a person take the shot? I think that asking the question implies a lack of confidence in the performance in the first place. If I were going to hunt grizzly bears with my .243 it would be because I already had 100% confidence in my ability to do so. I would NOT ask a bunch of strangers on the interwebs if it was a good idea. If you need our validation in your decision, that is what makes it a bad choice, maybe this year you could take something with a little more oomph, and then after that experience, you can better answer your own dilemma for the following season.

 

[.308 Norma]

I think the one gun adage applied to MEN with tools surviving and keeping their families fed with what they had available

Yeah, I know. I was joking, and the fact is, I kinda like that old adage. It’s just that I think it only applied to men, and some women of an earlier, and perhaps in some ways simpler, time. For example, I’ve read that Annie Oakley (Phoebe Ann Mosey) paid off her widowed mother’s home by using her father’s old Kentucky rifle to kill wild game for a local grocery store.

But times change. Heck, even when I was a kid and my folks had a small, country grocery store, if they’d have tried to sell one of the ducks/pheasants/rabbits/any other species of wild game I dragged home, some Bureaucratic Department of Something or the Other would probably have shut my folks’ store down, and laid a sizable fine on them as well.

Anyway, that’s getting a little off topic I guess. The thing is, even though I was joking about that “one gun” thing, nowadays I suspect that most of the guys that want to use their ARs for deer hunting are not doing so because it’s the only gun they can afford (they probably own several semi-auto handguns as well) and they’re not doing it because they need to provide meat their families either.

 

[.308 Norma]

when I first found Idaho would allow me to hunt black bears and elk with a .223 (though for some reason it's not recommended on their FAQ page) I thought to myself "wow! That is scary thought!" Until I realized, this lack of over bearing micro managing of game hunters suggests they expect THE HUNTER to have enough sense to not turn the hunting into a circus.

Yeppers, I totally agree with you, horsey300. And the thought of the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, or any other government agency "micro managing" game hunters is even scarier to me than allowing black bear and elk hunting with .223s. Besides, even though I personally believe bear and elk hunting with a .223 (and in most cases, deer) is unethical, you can't legislate ethics. I know that's another tired old cliché, but it's true.
On top of all that, even if we Idahoans had a caliber restriction of say, .25 caliber and above, what would stop some clown who had drawn a moose tag from going out there and trying to kill a moose with a .30 Carbine, or a 9mm?

 

[horsey300]

Yeppers, I totally agree with you, horsey300. And the thought of the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, or any other government agency "micro managing" game hunters is even scarier to me than allowing black bear and elk hunting with .223s. Besides, even though I personally believe bear and elk hunting with a .223 (and in most cases, deer) is unethical, you can't legislate ethics. I know that's another tired old cliché, but it's true.
On top of all that, even if we Idahoans had a caliber restriction of say, .25 caliber and above, what would stop some clown who had drawn a moose tag from going out there and trying to kill a moose with a .30 Carbine, or a 9mm?

Velocity or energy requirements......however having lived in a state with caliber and energy requirements......there are still too many who slip through. Thus I come back to a hunter proficiency class alongside of the plain old hunter safety. can't make folks grow ethics but if they had to demonstrate knowledge and ethics before they were allowed their tag, I bet the YouTube commandos would start to be perceived in a different light...

 

[Vince Cyr]

One thing. I'm not really talking about ARs. Living in NY as I do, real ARs are kinda illegal for most of us. Sure, we can get a "NY compliant" one, but that takes away most of the features that make it an AR. Don't really like it, but that's the law. I currently own a bolt action chambered in 5.56, though.

 

[RPRNY]

I've asked to have a Seeking Affirmation sub-forum set up for this sort of thing: when the OP only wants affirmation, rather than information.

 

[FL-NC]

One thing. I'm not really talking about ARs. Living in NY as I do, real ARs are kinda illegal for most of us. Sure, we can get a "NY compliant" one, but that takes away most of the features that make it an AR. Don't really like it, but that's the law. I currently own a bolt action chambered in 5.56, though.

AR's make no difference. I also have a bolt 223 along with some AR's. Once the bullet hits the target, how it got there is in the past and irrelevant. The questions are, can the shooter use that rifle to hit the target in the first place, and what effect does that bullet have when it gets there.

 

[Vince Cyr]

I've asked to have a Seeking Affirmation sub-forum set up for this sort of thing: when the OP only wants affirmation, rather than information.

Actually, if you read the post, I was seeking information. This thread was supposed to be about taking a black bear, something I have no experience with and not many people I can talk to about, while deer hunting. I didn't start this thread to debate whether a 223 is suitable for deer. I've seen plenty of deer taken with that cartridge and and am confident in my ability to do the same. And it is legal here, so the debate is mute. However, black bears are a new creature here. I have never had any occasion to hunt one before, but the population is growing pretty fast here, and I could encounter one. I'm not frightened by them, and surely don't feel that I have to take one out as soon as it presents a shot. I just didn't know if a 223 would be suitable (as specified, with a heavier load).

 

[Water-Man]

I've hunted for 60+ years and taken several bears during that time. IMO, do not use a .223 for bear. It leaves little room for error and error happens more times than not in hunting game.

 

[Speedo66]

My memory is a little fuzzy about it, but I recall .223 not being legal for deer in NY. Were the hunting regs changed to allow it? If it was changed, it was probably from constituent pressure on state legislators, not by choice of conservation dept.

If deer jackers were using .22 center fires, was it because they made less noise?

 

[Vince Cyr]

My memory is a little fuzzy about it, but I recall .223 not being legal for deer in NY. Were the hunting regs changed to allow it? If it was changed, it was probably from constituent pressure on state legislators, not by choice of conservation dept.

If deer jackers were using .22 center fires, was it because they made less noise?

It's been "any centerfire" as long as I have been hunting. This area used to be shotgun only, but they changed that a while back.
As to the noise thing, it was never really a concern among the people I talked to. And it's not like 22 centerfires are that much quieter. You can still hear one from at least a mile off. Being heard just wasn't high on their problem list.

 

[Victoratsea]

Actually, if you read the post, I was seeking information. This thread was supposed to be about taking a black bear, something I have no experience with and not many people I can talk to about, while deer hunting. I didn't start this thread to debate whether a 223 is suitable for deer. I've seen plenty of deer taken with that cartridge and and am confident in my ability to do the same. And it is legal here, so the debate is mute. However, black bears are a new creature here. I have never had any occasion to hunt one before, but the population is growing pretty fast here, and I could encounter one. I'm not frightened by them, and surely don't feel that I have to take one out as soon as it presents a shot. I just didn't know if a 223 would be suitable (as specified, with a heavier load).

Lets look at this question from another angle. I've killed and butchered deer, pigs and black bears. A deer is a comparatively delicate animal, light bones and not particularly heavy muscled except for the hams. A bear, on the other hand, is heavily muscled and possessed of thick heavy bones. Black bear are incredibly strong, sturdy, tough creatures. Consider Eastbank's picture of the carcass of a 600 lb bear.(post # 9) While this is a monster black bear in anyone's book, the structure of a smaller bear is generally the same. Without the ladder, to add scale to the picture, this could have been the carcass of a healthy 200lb male. For myself, I would consider, given the sturdy nature of a black bear's body, could a tiny .224 bullet be slowed enough to impede penetration to the vital organs by such a body? Could those heavy bones turn or shatter a light caliber bullet and expend its energy on the bone rather than the vital organs? Also consider, that it is not at all uncommon for these powerful creatures to attack hunters, or anyone they feel threaten them. I for one, carry a bigger gun where bears might be n the menu.

 

[.308 Norma]

I've hunted for 60+ years and taken several bears during that time. IMO, do not use a .223 for bear. It leaves little room for error and error happens more times than not in hunting game.

^^^^^^^
What Water-Man said, except that as I'm not quite 70 yet, I only have 55 years big game hunting experience.
And if I may add just one more thing - I don't reckon deer and bear hunting in Idaho is all that similar to deer and bear hunting in New York. For one thing Vince, you mentioned in your original post for this thread, "you automatically get a bear tag as well as however many deer tags you get" - it's been years, I can't even remember when, since you could get even a second deer tag in Idaho, much less a "bear tag as well as however many deer tags you get."
I'm mostly mentioning that because even back in my younger, working years, deer were obviously a lot harder to find in Idaho than they are in New York. And, I only had (if I was lucky) maybe 10 or 12 days vacation time to find one. So, even though I had a .22-250 that I figure I'm still good enough with to cleanly take a mule deer with if the circumstances are just right, in my "younger, working years," I didn't have the time to wait for the circumstances to become "just right." Now that I'm older, I may have the time, but I don't get around in the hills nearly as well as I used to. So the chances of the circumstances becoming "just right" at my age are automatically reduced by my inability to climb to my favorite saddles before daybreak like I used to.
Anyway, getting back to the question about .223s for black bears, I just don't think so. I've only killed one of them, and he wasn't a large one, but it seems to me he was as Victoratsea mentioned - more heavily muscled and heavier boned than any mule deer I've ever killed. Not that I had any trouble killing him. He was on a hillside, about 75 yards away, tearing up a rotten log (looking for grubs or something I suppose) and I shot him right behind his left shoulder with a .270. He went down, thrashed a bit, and died. The bullet, a Speer, 130gr. GS-SP had exited behind his right shoulder.

 

[.308 Norma]

Thus I come back to a hunter proficiency class alongside of the plain old hunter safety. can't make folks grow ethics but if they had to demonstrate knowledge and ethics before they were allowed their tag

Yeah, that sounds like it might be a pretty good idea. You might have a tough time though getting cranky old goats like myself to go along with a hunter proficiency class - "We don't need no stink-king hunter proficiency class!"
No, seriously - I don't know what the year and age cutoff is, but neither my wife nor I have gone through Idaho Hunter Education. We've each sat through it with our daughters when they were 12, and my dad taught it for a few years, but it's not required for older Idaho hunters like my wife and I.

 

[horsey300]

Yeah, that sounds like it might be a pretty good idea. You might have a tough time though getting cranky old goats like myself to go along with a hunter proficiency class - "We don't need no stink-king hunter proficiency class!"
No, seriously - I don't know what the year and age cutoff is, but neither my wife nor I have gone through Idaho Hunter Education. We've each sat through it with our daughters when they were 12, and my dad taught it for a few years, but it's not required for older Idaho hunters like my wife and I.

It varies from state to state quite a bit, some places the age is 30(ish) but I believe there are some that require you be born before 1965 just to be extra safe
ETA that "the cranky old goats" have never caused me to worry about such issues. It's usually a different type altogether

 

[Victoratsea]

^^^^^^^
What Water-Man said, except that as I'm not quite 70 yet, I only have 55 years big game hunting experience.
And if I may add just one more thing - I don't reckon deer and bear hunting in Idaho is all that similar to deer and bear hunting in New York. For one thing Vince, you mentioned in your original post for this thread, "you automatically get a bear tag as well as however many deer tags you get" - it's been years, I can't even remember when, since you could get even a second deer tag in Idaho, much less a "bear tag as well as however many deer tags you get."
I'm mostly mentioning that because even back in my younger, working years, deer were obviously a lot harder to find in Idaho than they are in New York. And, I only had (if I was lucky) maybe 10 or 12 days vacation time to find one. So, even though I had a .22-250 that I figure I'm still good enough with to cleanly take a mule deer with if the circumstances are just right, in my "younger, working years," I didn't have the time to wait for the circumstances to become "just right." Now that I'm older, I may have the time, but I don't get around in the hills nearly as well as I used to. So the chances of the circumstances becoming "just right" at my age are automatically reduced by my inability to climb to my favorite saddles before daybreak like I used to.
Anyway, getting back to the question about .223s for black bears, I just don't think so. I've only killed one of them, and he wasn't a large one, but it seems to me he was as Victoratsea mentioned - more heavily muscled and heavier boned than any mule deer I've ever killed. Not that I had any trouble killing him. He was on a hillside, about 75 yards away, tearing up a rotten log (looking for grubs or something I suppose) and I shot him right behind his left shoulder with a .270. He went down, thrashed a bit, and died. The bullet, a Speer, 130gr. GS-SP had exited behind his right shoulder.

Thank you Sir! You got my point exactly. A black bear is not hard to kill; provided you use a rifle that carries enough weight and penetration in it's bullets to overcome the beast's generally tough body. Most of the usual deer rifle calibers work just fine. 6.5 mm and larger deer calibers are effective provided you place them into the vital organs. And while the .243 win. with 100gr.bullets is one of my favorite open country deer cartridges, I think circumstances would have to be "just right" for me to shoot a bear with it. Specifically, broadside, foreleg forward, or quartering away. Oh, and thanks to Eastbank for providing the very germane photos of his huge bear and his very suitable deer AND bear hunting rifle. Good choice Sir.