black MZ and 45 cartridges

[webrx]

I have received 3 lbs of Black MZ, sportsmans had it for 10 bucks a can

I also have some 45 colt brass that is freshly cleaned.

Was thinking I might load up some 45 cartridges that smoke.....

I found some data on the web, but also have just emailed alliant for confirmation (dont believe everything I read on the web). This supposedly came directly from Alliant, but again, I am waiting for an email response from them to confirm.

This is what I have found:

Alliant Powder
Black MZ Cartridge Data

38 Special (Federal brass, Fed 100 primer)
125 gr RNFP lead 16 grs @ 826 fps
158 gr RNFP lead 15 grs @ 773 fps

357 Rem Mag (Federal brass, Fed 100 primer)
125 gr RNFP lead 19.5 grs @ 913 fps
158 gr RNFP lead 19 grs @ 905 fps

44 SW Special (Federal brass, Fed 100 primer)
200 gr RNFP lead 25 grs @ 920 fps
240 gr RNFP lead 22 grs @ 869 fps

44 Rem Mag (Federal brass, Fed 150 primer)
200 gr RNFP lead 27.5 grs @ 1043 fps
240 gr RNFP lead 27 grs @ 995 fps

45 Colt (Federal brass, Fed 150 primer)
250 gr RNFP lead 26.5 grs @ 878 fps
300 gr RNFP lead 26 grs @ 824 fps

45/70 (Federal brass, Fed 210 primer)
350 gr RNFP lead 53 grs @ 1503 fps
405 gr RNFP lead 49 grs @ 1364 fps

A firm crimp on the bullet is recommended.

Now, nowhere in there does it say anything about compression, however alliants site say strong compression recommend in muzzleloaders.

Also no load info for 200 gr RNFP.

Anyone loading Black MZ in cartridges and how much compression are you using?

Results? likes? dislikes?

Thanks

d

 

[Wildfire]

You will hear a lot on this sooner or later. I have a very pretty 1860 cartridge revolver. .45 Colt. I hunt with it. My best loads are 8 to 8.5 grains of Unique with my own styled cut down bullet made from a 255 grain hard cast swc.
I did use {try} BP in the revolver. Velocity is higher and the bang is awesome. Recoil is OK but stiff.
Yes that Black Powder will be compressed and better be. There can be zero air gap between the bullet and powder. I used 35 grains of BP and a 200 grain cast swc. Accuracy was good. But, it gets hard to turn the cylinder by the 5th round. In fact I had to help it by rolling the cylinder with one hand while pulling the hammer with the other. I really like the revolver.
But, I stopped loading BP. Black powder will get in every tiny place on that gun. On the plus side the velocity spread was 7 fps. The closest I have ever seen.
Recoil would move bullets in the cases as the 200s have no crimp groove. Another reason to not use BP with those.
Natural lubes must be used with BP. Just the way it works. There is the crowd that only shoots black powder and they will give totally different comments. They are not wrong, they just like cleaning their guns more often.
The BP with the 200 grainers went 932 fps. My hunting loads are 237 grains and they run right at 850 fps with that 8.0 of unique.
35 grains is a very stiff load and can be a full case. Kind of depends on what you are shooting these through.
I also have a custom built USFA in .45 colt / .45 acp. That one will never see Black powder.
The black powder I used was Pyrodex P. CCI 300 primers. You may need to test different drops and see what actually fits in your cases right. The BP will more than likely pretty close to fill the case. Heavy bullets may not allow 30 grains. I would call 30 grains a max load. Regardless there can be no air gap and the BP must be volume not by weight. Seems I did try 30 grains but lost my records on what that round did.
The other load I tested was 23.0 grains of Buck Horn BP and a CCI 350 primer. Never again. The velocity ran at their book specs 866 fps. But, that powder was so dirty and slimy and smoked way long after the shot. It seemed to just keep on smoking. It smoked so much that you could not sight up until it stopped.

 

[webrx]

Thanks Wildfire.

This is what Alliant sent regarding Black MZ. I am not posting the full response yet to be safe, don't want a typo to get someone hurt so being cautious until I get a second response,

Alliant rep recommended a charge "by weight" that seemed pretty stout.....

I quote:

"Below is he only load data we have for the use of Black MZ in the 45 Colt. The charges are by weight and are the charges, not to be reduced or increased."

The charges they recommended were specified by weight for BP which is typically measured by volume and were in a range that I would expect if loading by volume so it made me a little bit leery that they may have been a typo.

NOTE: I did reply asking them to confirm the "by weight" comment

If I get a few minutes in the next day or so I will break out the scale and the measure their recommendation by weight and volume and see what the difference is between X grains of Black MZ by weight and volume and how that fits in a 45 colt casing.

Dave

 

[Wildfire]

Cool to get a response from them so fast.
I have weighed BP after measuring by Volume. I cannot remember what I came up with. At the time I had figured if I misplaced my volume measure then I could just weigh the BP.
Much later I was warned about doing that but never given a reason.
Using 35 grains of BP in old styled BP framed hang guns is a stiff load. And as I said, it requires cleaning with usually a full strip down when done. That was the part that finally turned me away from using it. But, it is fun and smokes a lot and has huge bang. Have fun and clean your guns.

 

[Surculus]

Thanks Wildfire.

"Below is he only load data we have for the use of Black MZ in the 45 Colt. The charges are by weight and are the charges, not to be reduced or increased."

The charges they recommended were specified by weight for BP which is typically measured by volume and were in a range that I would expect if loading by volume so it made me a little bit leery that they may have been a typo.

The erythrobic [sp?] acid [the left-hand chiral of ascorbic acid] based BP substitute powders like APP, JSG & Black MZ are noted for having really variable grain size [part of why they're only "rated" as 2FFg equivalent I guess?] Anyway, they don't pour as well as BP, so accurate loads require weighing of charges. They also *require* pretty serious compression to burn well.

 

[LoneGoose]

Driftwood Johnson has some posts on shooting black powder cartridges. I recommend reading them. He emphasizes cleaning the gun completely and then lubing only where you have to. He goes into detail on prepping the cases as well. I'd bet that if you follow his guidelines you won't have near the mess you could get.

 

[rsrocket1]

I got suckered in when the local Sportsmans Warehouse had it on "clearance" at $10/pound. I bought 11 bottles of it and now have more than I'll probably ever use (or want) for my ML's. BlackMZ ignites pretty easily and gives off a lot of "BP-like" smoke


Yes it measures like cat litter but since it is "close to BP" in that you should be able to measure with a BP powder measure, you can simply measure the seating depth of your bullet, fill the case with BlackMZ to where the bullet would touch when seated and determine the weight or volume in a BP powder measure. When Alliant says to "pack the bullet down", they mean by hand force using a ramrod in a muzzleloader. You don't really need a severely compressed charge to make it work. You can compress it with a dowel or something with a little force. I wouldn't highly compress it with a reloading press, that's way too much force.

It may leave white "crusties" in your case, but the burned products are not terribly hygroscopic (corrosive). I clean my inline ML barrels with CLP and it works fine.