BLACK-MZ.

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by TOOT44, Jan 5, 2022.

  1. Crunchy Frog

    Crunchy Frog Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    688
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    Here’s my two cents as a cowboy action shooter. I’ve been using APP 3F in .38 Special for years. I use a 158 grain bullet with powder up to the base of the bullet, by weight about 11.5 grains.

    Alliant Black MZ was made by APP. Only one granulation which is more course than 3F. When Sportsman’s Warehouse was closing it out at $9.99 per pound I picked up a supply. I mostly used it for 12 gauge figuring it would meter better in the MEC bushing compared to the powder measure on my metallic cartridge press.

    About a year ago I added a .44-40 rifle to the safe. I decided to use Black MZ to work up a load. I charged cases with the capacity shown on APP’s website but I think it was not quite up to the base of the bullet. When I chronographed that test batch they were a little inconsistent.

    An experienced shooter recommended foam caulk backer rod as a filler. I started with his recommended load, which was less than 20 grains, inserted the foam rod and cut it flush with the case mouth, and seated a bullet. When I clocked them they were consistent and the velocity was not much lower than the almost-full loads. It is not a “wimpy cowboy load”; it’s a 200 grain bullet at almost 1000 FPS.

    Yes, the Black MZ often clumps in the container. Rumor has it the powder was improperly stored at one point. When I open a new one pound container I insert a wooden paddle to break up the largest clumps, then I pour some into a clear Pyrex measuring cup where it gets more stirring, then through a funnel into my powder measure. It takes just a minute. Happy to do so at the price I paid.
     
    drobs, Bibbyman and AntiqueSledMan like this.
  2. Dave T

    Dave T Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    1,597
    Location:
    Mesa, AZ
    alsaqr,

    I read that part of your post at least three times...and read it wrong every time. My apologies, Sir!

    Dave
     
    whughett likes this.
  3. brewer12345

    brewer12345 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    2,290
    Amazing. I don't doubt others' experiences with this stuff, but other than some minor clumping easily broken up with a few shakes of the can, I have had none of these problems. I think quite highly of this powder and when I run out I will be looking for APP. Other than possibly excessive smoke production, it works great in my cap guns.
     
  4. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    clumping up, is it also a common experence with T-7, TRIPPLE -7? I don't see any sites on a problem of clumping of it. has any one used / shot it? just courious?
     
  5. noelf2

    noelf2 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    567
    Location:
    Patrick County Virginia
    I shoot a LOT of it in my in-lines. I haven't experienced any clumping.
     
    alsaqr likes this.
  6. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,761
    Location:
    South Western, OK
    Jon, i think much of the clumping is attributed to storage conditions. Five cans of Black MZ have been stored in our house for a couple years; it has never clumped. A couple cans of Black MZ stored in the tornado shelter have clumped. The 15 year old Pinnacle stored in the tornado shelter has badly clumped, the 3F worse than the 2F. That old Pinnacle powder still goes bang, but with less puissance.
     
  7. frontiergander

    frontiergander Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    946
    Location:
    Boncarbo,CO
    those pictures are from the first day i bought it at the store and opened it when i got home.
     
  8. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    who & when was that powder made? it is new to me, never heard of it. what grains does it come in?
     
  9. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    I guess poor storage? but it did not affect the performance of it.
     
  10. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,761
    Location:
    South Western, OK
    1. American Pioneer Powder

    2. Mine was made in 2005 or 06

    3. It's long obsolete. Goex Pinnacle came in 2F and 3F. It went away when Hodgdon bought GOEX powder
     
  11. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    alsaqr, thank you for the response to my questions. yes it seems that they have gone the way of the DINOSAOURS! APP, 16 yrs. gone. and PINNACLE, also that I haver never seen or heard of. was it a product that was sold in a particular part of the country? any chance some one has a picture of a can of it? just courious.
     
  12. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    alsaqr, any chance that GOEX, changed the name of PINNACLE, when they bought it and produced it under another name? have you ever had the chance to use it?
     
  13. noelf2

    noelf2 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    567
    Location:
    Patrick County Virginia
    IMG_20220113_082020980.jpg

    I have a mostly full bottle of 3f Pinnacle. It shot good and clean, but had clumped a bit. I stopped using it when it was discontinued. Didn't see the point of sighting in with a product I can't continue to get. Moved on to 777. I haven't looked at this bottle for several years, and I was surprised that it hadn't clumped again but it's in a humidity controlled area. Stuff smells sweet, like molasses. I'll probably just burn it up in shotgun shells, or sprinkle on the garden.
     
  14. noelf2

    noelf2 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    567
    Location:
    Patrick County Virginia
    Found this in another forum:
    * Pinnacle is a heat degraded ascorbic acid based powder as was Clean Shot
    * Hodgdon sued Clean Shot Technologies for infringement of their Pyrodex technology
    * As a result of the verdict, Clean Shot went out of business and formed a new company, American Pioneer Powder making the same ascorbic acid based powder
    * Goex wanted in on substitute powders and contracted with APP to make an ascorbic acid based powder called Pinnacle
    * Hodgdon had Pyrodex and in the meantime developed Triple Seven. Hodgdon Powder Company began to ship their new black powder substitute in February, 2002.
    * In 2009,Hodgdon purchased Goex and had in their product line, Pyrodex and Triple Seven. Pinnacle was deemed to be a low revenue product and was phased out
    * In addition, Hodgdon was aware that Pinnacle powder was nothing more than the same minor modification formulation of the old Clean Shot ascorbic acid based powder

    Here is a recap of the law suit between Hodgdon and Clean Shot:
    November 2001, Shawnee Mission, Kansas Hodgdon Powder Company announces that Clean Shot Technologies, Inc. was shot down by a jury verdict in a patent infringement lawsuit filed by Hodgdon.

    A Federal Court jury in West Palm Beach Florida on Monday November 5, 2001 unanimously handed down a verdict in favor of Hodgdon Powder Company, Inc. and against Clean Shot Technologies, and awarded Hodgdon damages in the sum of $1,014,660.

    The jury rejected all of Clean Shot's claims that the Hodgdon patent was not valid, including evidence of products claimed to have been made by the long defunct Golden Powder Company. The jury unanimously found that Clean Shot had willfully infringed Hodgdon's Pyrodex Pellet patent by copying and selling pelletized powder known as "Quick Shots". An injunction prohibiting further production and sale of "Quick Shots" was issued November 7, 2001.
     
    alsaqr likes this.
  15. whughett

    whughett Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,635
    Location:
    Rhode Island/Florida
    So did I. That “d” on use just didn’t register. Didn’t notice it until the rebuttal. ;)
     
  16. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,761
    Location:
    South Western, OK
    i shot about 20 pounds of Goex Pinnacle 2F and 3F. Still have several cans.

    Some history:

    The predecessor of APP manufactured a pellet that Hodgdon claimed violated their Pyrodex pellet patent. Hodgdon was successful in suing the predecessor of APP into bankruptcy.

    1. Goex Pinnacle was produced by APP.

    2. Pinnacle went away after Hodgdon bought GOEX.

    3. Then Alliant began selling APP produced Black MZ.

    4. APP continues to sell APP and Jim Shockey Gold powder.

    5. APP manufactures the relatively new Shooters World Multi Purpose Black in granular and pellet form: I recently received a couple cans of that powder.

    6. The Pyrodex patent expired. APP now manufactures a pellet with hole through the center.

    If Clean Shot had a good patent lawyer they would have won the patent infringement case. Pellet powder had been previously patented in the 1890s.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
    Blackpowderwarrior likes this.
  17. brewer12345

    brewer12345 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    2,290
    It's a shame that this stuff has such a tortured past. I like it very well and will continue shooting it as long as it is available. Don't get me wrong, I still like and shoot real black. But ascorbic based subs are clean, easy to clean up, provide more than enough power for my needs, and seem to be plenty accurate for what I do. At this point it is shoot any powder you can lay your hands on, I suppose.
     
    alsaqr and Blackpowderwarrior like this.
  18. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    they come with a PIPE CLEANER in each box of pellets. it is for sticking into the holes to get them out of the box with out breaking them, as they are fragile.
     
  19. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    notice when you pour the cleaning water out of your barrel with sibs, except PYRODEX, that it runs / comes out brown instead of black as BP, does. and cleans up quicker than most.
     
  20. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    thank you so much for the post for the history of them.
     
  21. drobs

    drobs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2017
    Messages:
    1,708
    Location:
    Missouri
    TOOT44,

    What state do you reside in? If you're in or near Missouri I'll give you a can of Black MZ.
    I bought 8 to 10 cans of it from Sportsman's Warehouse a few years ago.

    I like to use a powder flask to load my C&B revolvers. Black MZ does not come out of a powder flask very well.
    I'll eventually use it to load BP cartridges.
     
    noelf2 likes this.
  22. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    drobs, thank you for the gesture. I am afraid I an a bit too far, in R.I. I would like to get a can of it. oh well. thank you for the info you provided about using it in a powder flask. TOOT44.
     
    drobs likes this.
  23. Jackrabbit1957

    Jackrabbit1957 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,716
    You know, it's kinda funny, I never had problems getting Black MZ out of my flasks but have had T7 clog the gate on my Hawksley flasks to the point of jamming them open.
     
  24. TOOT44

    TOOT44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    I guess that the SUB'S all react to atmosphere in different ways? it seems to bear that out, from the posts? what say you?
     
  25. AntiqueSledMan

    AntiqueSledMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Hello guys,

    Black MZ was introduced in 2011, a Black Powder Substitute labeled and sold by the Alliant Powder Company,
    that was until an explosion at the gunpowder manufacturing facility in Whitewater, CO. on June 25th, 2016
    and the supply was depleted. Now it has been discontinued.

    Shooters World has a product called “Multi-Purpose Black”. This is supposed to be the same as Black MZ
    but in a 3F variant, many shooters claim it more like a 2-1/2F. It is manufactured by American Pioneer Powder
    at the Whitewater, CO facility. Load Data listed is an exact copy of the American Pioneer Powder’s load data.

    AntiqueSledMan.
     
    alsaqr likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice