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Black powder is a felony

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Zoogster, Jul 17, 2008.

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  1. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    I have seen many people here from CA talk about possessing more than one pound of black powder, or purchasing in bulk or creating thier own. You can only legaly have one pound of black powder without a license.

    I wanted to insure everyone from the the great :rolleyes: state of CA knows that possessing more than 1 pound of black powder subjects them to felony punishments.
    This is in California's
    HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE
    SECTION 12101


    It is too long to post in its entirity, but essentialy it is possession or storage of an illegal explosive without permits to have more than 1 pound of black powder or more than 20 pounds of smokeless powder as a private individual.

    The exception that applies to shooters is section 12102 of the Health and Safety Code:
    "12102. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20
    pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or less of black
    sporting powder
    , provided that:
    (a) Smokeless powder is intended only for hand loading of small
    arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
    (b) Black sporting powder is intended for loading of small arms or
    small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
    (c) All such powder is for private use and not for resale, and, in
    the case of black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery,
    or other disposition to another person.
    (d) The storage, use and handling of such smokeless and black
    powder conforms to rules, regulations, or ordinances of authorities
    having jurisdiction for fire prevention and suppression in the area
    of such storage, use, and handling of such explosives."



    Here is the code that outlaws it except under the above exemption of 1 pound:
    12101. (a) No person shall do any one of the following without
    first having made application for and received a permit in accordance
    with this section:
    (1) Manufacture explosives.
    (2) Sell, furnish, or give away explosives.
    (3) Receive, store, or possess explosives.
    (4) Transport explosives.
    (5) Use explosives.

    (6) Operate a terminal for handling explosives.
    (7) Park or leave standing any vehicle carrying explosives, except
    when parked or left standing in or at a safe stopping place
    designated as such by the Department of the California Highway Patrol
    under Division 14 (commencing with Section 31600) of the Vehicle
    Code."
     
  2. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    -Yet another reason why I'll never return to California.
     
  3. whosyrdaddy

    whosyrdaddy Member

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    I wonder which category the subs fall into? Technically they aren't smokeless, nor are they an explosive under the strictest of definitions. Could it be that they fall outside of the purview of the statute?
     
  4. Voodoochile

    Voodoochile Member

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    I agree, I will not go to that Communist state unless I'm passing through to Hawaii or something.
     
  5. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Question: Hey Joe, can I try some of that new BP you're using?

    Answer: Sure, here's a pre-loader full for you to try.

    Police Dispatcher: 1 Adam 12, 1 Adam 12, felony gifting of black powder in progress at the municiple shooting range...suspects are armed and loaded for bear!

    What a double yolk! :neener:
     
  6. alemonkey

    alemonkey Member

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    God, I hate California.
     
  7. Seafarer12

    Seafarer12 Member

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    Isn't federal law 50 pounds.
     
  8. taprackbang

    taprackbang member

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    Lived in Cali for two years. Could not wait to escape and get back to Texas.
    BUT a way around this is to disobey their STUPID law or put a pound of powder at each friend's house. I highly doubt someone would come to your house and investigate. I am willing to bet that if we all read the obscure, absurd laws in all of our state codes combined we would prob all be breaking state laws.

    "When is enough ENOUGH?"

    "Have you 'Googled' Ron Paul yet?"
     
  9. TAB

    TAB Member

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  10. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    Is this a legal lecture or a reason to kick ********** out of the union?????

    I need to go back and re-read Heston's speech on civil disobedience. Yes, some laws are written to be ignored. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Possession of quantities exceeding one pound of black powder is a felony with fines of $5,000 and possible jail time.

    You have to do a little work to find the punishment section it is there though, maybe if I feel nice I will dig it up yet again to help people like TAB out.

    Here is a guy that will represent you for it though TAB since you seem to want to disbelieve:

    http://www.gunlaw.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=28

    They even list the offense on thier website on that page.

    Here you go:
    Health and Safety Code

    12303. "Lawful possession of an explosive," as used in this
    chapter, means possessing explosives in accordance with the stated
    purpose and conditions of a valid permit obtained pursuant to the
    provisions of this part, unless such person is specifically excepted
    from the permit requirements by the provisions of this part.




    12305. Every person not in the lawful possession of an explosive
    who knowingly has any explosive in his possession is guilty of a
    felony.

    If you have more than one pound of black powder in your possession you do not possess the explosive legaly without a permit.

    Here is the definition of explosive

    "12000. For the purposes of this part, "explosives" means any
    substance, or combination of substances, the primary or common
    purpose of which is detonation or rapid combustion, and which is
    capable of a relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and
    heat, or any substance, the primary purpose of which, when combined
    with others, is to form a substance capable of a relatively
    instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat. "Explosives"
    includes, but is not limited to, any explosives as defined in Section
    841 of Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to
    Section 555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and
    any of the following:
    (a) Dynamite, nitroglycerine, picric acid, lead azide, fulminate
    of mercury, black powder, smokeless powder, propellant explosives,
    detonating primers, blasting caps, or commercial boosters.
    (b) Substances determined to be division 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, or 1.6
    explosives as classified by the United States Department of
    Transportation.
    (c) Nitro carbo nitrate substances (blasting agent) classified as
    division 1.5 explosives by the United States Department of
    Transportation.
    (d) Any material designated as an explosive by the State Fire
    Marshal. The designation shall be made pursuant to the
    classification standards established by the United States Department
    of Transportation. The State Fire Marshal shall adopt regulations in
    accordance with the Government Code to establish procedures for the
    classification and designation of explosive materials or explosive
    devices that are not under the jurisdiction of the United States
    Department of Transportation pursuant to provisions of Section 841 of
    Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to Section
    555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that define
    explosives.
    (e) Certain division 1.4 explosives as designated by the United
    States Department of Transportation when listed in regulations
    adopted by the State Fire Marshal."
     
  12. TAB

    TAB Member

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    why don't you show me on a Ca.gov site... or just give me the law number...


    even if you read your link it says

    OVER 20 POUNDS OF SMOKELESS GUNPOWDER OR
    MORE THAN ONE POUND OF BLACK POWDER.

    Even if intended for use in sporting firearms, California provides felony penalties for possessing more than the stated amounts of gunpowder without special permits.




    no where does it say it is a felony, just that it can be.

    so please site the cvc chs etc that says its a felony.
     
  13. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Ignoring the usual mindless blather about "communism" etc., I wonder if anyone has ever been prosecuted for this? I also note that it would appear to be illegal to load for a larger than .75 caliber gun. That would seem to make felons out of the folks (all five of us) shooting eight and four bore muzzleloaders....
     
  14. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Health and Safety Code
    12305. Every person not in the lawful possession of an explosive
    who knowingly has any explosive in his possession is guilty of a
    felony.

    The entire 12000's deal with explosives.
     
  15. TAB

    TAB Member

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    12001. This part does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) Any person engaged in the transportation of explosives
    regulated by, and when subject to, the provisions of Division 14
    (commencing with Section 31600) of the Vehicle Code.
    (b) Small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less when designated
    as a division 1.4 explosive by the United States Department of
    Transportation.
    (c) Fireworks regulated under Part 2 (commencing with Section
    12500) of this division, including, but not limited to, special
    effects pyrotechnics regulated by the State Fire Marshal pursuant to
    Section 12555.
    (d) Any explosives while in the course of transportation via
    railroad, aircraft, water, or highway when the explosives are in
    actual movement and under the jurisdiction of and in conformity with
    regulations adopted by the United States Department of
    Transportation, United States Coast Guard, or the Federal Aviation
    Agency. However, no explosives shall be sold, given away, or
    delivered except as provided in Section 12120.
    (e) Special fireworks classified by the United States Department
    of Transportation as division 1.3 explosives when those special
    fireworks are regulated under Part 2 (commencing with Section 12500)
    of this division, when a permit has been issued pursuant to
    regulations of the State Fire Marshal.
    (f) (1) Black powder in quantities of 25 pounds or less in the
    hands of a retailer having a permit issued under Article 2
    (commencing with Section 6066) of Chapter 2 of Part 1 of Division 2
    of the Revenue and Taxation Code and in quantities of five pounds or
    less in the hands of all others and smokeless powder in quantities of
    20 pounds or less used, possessed, stored, sold, or transported that
    is exempted under, or authorized by, the Federal Organized Crime
    Control Act of 1970 (Public Law 91-452) and applicable federal
    regulations thereunder.



    read section f.... seems like all others can have up to 5 lbs...

    I think you need to read the entire section rather then just parts...

    becuase you miss parts like this

    12400. Except as provided in Chapter 7 (commencing with Section
    12302), Part 1, Division 11 of the Health and Safety Code, every
    person who violates any provision of this part, or violates any
    regulation adopted by the State Fire Marshal pursuant to this part,
    is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of not more than one
    thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment for not more than six
    months, or by both such fine and imprisonment.



    12401. Every person who is found guilty of a felony as specified in
    this part is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or in a
    county jail not exceeding one year, or by fine not exceeding ten
    thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment
     
  16. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    That is for licensed people TAB. They have different licenses wich can have differing amounts of black powder.

    You however cannot have more than one pound without a license.

    That is why I did not include section f because I knew it would confuse you.

    The misdemeanor provision applies to certain storage provisions and people that violate extra ordinances established by the fire marshall.

    Certain things specified are a felony. Such as possession of more than one pound of black powder without a permit.

    It can be a little confusing because there is provisions regarding people licensed for use with fireworks etc, and the punishments for people with certain licenses can be different if they violate a section. For them there is both misdemeanor violations and felony violations.
    But we are not talking about licensed people here.
    We are talking about people without a license possessing more than 1 pound of black powder.
    A felony.
     
  17. TAB

    TAB Member

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    section 6066 has nothing to do with explosives...

    so there are 2 conflicting sections...
     
  18. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    It does, it refers to permits required for business within the state, in this case a business that has the permits to conduct a business that involves such items.

    It is not conflicting it just takes some time.

    That is why people go to school for it, then only specialize in certain areas of CA law.

    That is why I tried to do you the favor of skipping that part, it can be confusing and is totaly unrelated.

    There is various violations of the law. Certian amounts can trigger multiple violations of different sections resulting in multiple seperate felonies. Some amounts only trigger one section.

    Yes it can be quite confusing if you are not used to pouring through CA code.

    Think of it like this, parts of the penal code outlaw certain types of firearms, some firearms only violate one section of the law, yet some others can violate multiple sections of the law. However the one that violates fewer sections is still not legal, it just violates fewer sections.
     
  19. TAB

    TAB Member

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    Its debatable, all bets are off if there is case law on the matter.

    Whats intresting is chances are extremly high that anyone that owns a flint lock would be a felon. ( I actually know a fire cheif right now that would be a felon...)
     
  20. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Which is exactly why I wanted to bring it to everyone's attention. Many black powder shooters have more than one pound of black powder, especialy if they do much shooting as that can be burned through fairly quickly as black powder is loaded in fairly large quantities in many loadings.

    They are all subject to felony arrest. Obviously someone has to learn they are breaking the law, but if for example they let an officer in thier home without knowing, officers had a legal search warrant, or they brought more than a pound to the range with them, or were stopped with over a pound in thier vehicle they could be arrested and charged with a felony.

    They are technicaly felons, and if caught could be charged and stripped of thier right to own a firearm.
    They would not likely recieve any jail time for innocent use with firearms, but they would become a felon and would be breaking the law.
    1 pound or less unless you have special permits.

    These are the types of things, and there is thousands in CA law that they say to never consent to a search for. There is many many things you do not know are illegal. Many people all over the state are commiting various crimes on a regular basis without any malicious intent on a number of codes. Many of them felonies.
    There is some very crazy laws many felonies, others misdemeanors.



    Here is a funny one I like showing, it being illegal to shine a light where animals live if you have a firearm that could kill that animal even if you do not kill or shoot at the animal, even if you are not hunting or engaged in such activites in any way:

    "(b) It is unlawful for any person, or one or more persons, to
    throw or cast the rays of any spotlight, headlight, or other
    artificial light on any highway or in any field, woodland, or forest
    where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are
    commonly found, or upon any game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or
    nongame mammal, while having in his or her possession or under his or
    her control any firearm or weapon with which that mammal could be
    killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or
    otherwise pursued."

    It includes all flashlights unless they are under 3 volts, and even flashlights under 3 volts if they are attached to a weapon:


    "d) The provisions of this section do not apply to any of the
    following:
    (1) The use of a hand-held flashlight no larger, nor emitting more
    light, than a two-cell, three-volt flashlight, provided that light
    is not affixed in any way to a weapon, or to the use of a lamp or
    lantern that does not cast a directional beam of light."


    People break this law all the time, especialy while camping if they have a firearm for protection. Just heading away from camp to use the bathroom in the woods and using a flashlight that is powered by more than 3 volts if you have a firearm on you is illegal. The same is true at your camp sight if you have a firearm on you and shine a stronger light into the woods to look around.

    Essentialy it is illegal to have a firearm and a flashlight over 3 volts at the same time in the woods. Hilarious isn't it?
    Obviously the intent is to prevent poaching and certain types of hunting, but the law does not specify that and outlaws that activity at all times, even if no harm or even attempted harm to any animal is commited or planned.
     
  21. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Police Dispatcher: 1 Adam 12, 1 Adam 12, a parked car has its headlights pointing into a field known to be frequented by wild mammals...code blue, code blue..may be armed with....cameras!

    Does the law mean headlights or helmet lights?...it doesn't matter! :neener:
     
  22. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    So, Zoogster, the reason you posted this drivel is because you want everyone in CA who possesses more than a pound of black powder to know that, in your opinion, they are committing a felony. Do I have that right?

    What is it that you expect them to do with that shocking revelation? Immediately throw away all their excess powder? March on Sacramento demanding the laws be changed? Move to Ohio?

    It's apparent that you are not a lawyer or judge, or you would have cited case law to demonstrate that the state was enforcing the language as you have interpreted it. I suspect there are no such citations, however.

    I suggest, if you're serious about this, that you do the following, in order:
    1) Decide just what it is you want people to do with this knowledge, and then say so.
    2) Provide examples in case law showing how the language is enforced and what the 'danger' to the public good is as a result of that enforcement.

    In the mean time, thanks for the fascinating trip through yet another example of why the left coast is leading the way to Perdition. As if we needed reminding.
     
  23. sundance44s

    sundance44s Member

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    Man thats terrible / here in MS. I can have 25 lbs ( which I always do ) with out a permit ...I can have 50 lbs with a permit .
    Buying one lb at a time would be expencive .
     
  24. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    Sundance I can go right now and buy to or 5 lbsof BP in cans with out being arrested for a felony offense...also can order with hazmat fee all I can afford.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The rest a this is for you'all that need to read it!

    I get real sick and tired of people raggin' on CA and don't live here. Ya'lall ain;t got a clue...and them that left, good on ya hope you're happy with Steer pies and armadillos or where ever else anyone ended up.

    Those laws have not to do with the sale of or personal shootin' use of Black Powder. Or I'd br typing from San Quintan or the Men's Penal Colony down San Diego way right now. Been pulled over and talked guns on the dang Freeway inthe middle of the wee hours of mornin' with 3 one pound cans a flask and a Powder horn full a BP drivin' 90 MPH...

    So talk and project your minds into topics that mean nothin' to you and alot to me... I can move too I don't need any a this crap.

    SMOKIN' GUN

    I've been here a long time I guess too long:neener:
     
  25. sundance44s

    sundance44s Member

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    Smokin ...always good to hear the truth of it ......I know alot of folks out there shoot alot of black powder ..It just wouldn`t make good sence to buy one lb at a time ...
    Heck if I buy one lb of Goex in a store here ...it`s 28 bucks a lb .
    I buy by the case of 25 lbs it`s 10 bucks a lb ..to my front door FED EX.
    Nothin beats real life experiences ...where ya on your bike ...LOL :D
     
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