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Black Powder Subs-

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by raa-7, Mar 10, 2013.

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  1. Ryden

    Ryden Member

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    From the MSD's, they should list every major ingredient above a certain percentage, which I've thankfully forgot, but MSD's are seldome what they should be.

    However, since the chemistry of explosives (at least low order explosives, the kind we're interested in) is rather simple we'd likely as not be able to see if anything important was missing.

    Pyrodex:
    Charcoal
    Sulphur
    Potassium Nitrate
    Potassium Perchlorate
    Graphite 2.5mg/m3 respirable dust

    Triple 7:
    Charcoal
    Potassium Nitrate
    Potassium Perchlorate
    Graphite 2.5mg/m3 respirable dust

    We can ignore the graphite as it's only used to coat the granulared powder.

    I'd say the Pyrodex is nought but BP with enough Potassium Perchlorate mixed in to legally make it something else. I suspect that Pyrodex being harder to ignite as seems to be the commen perception here is due to a higher ignition temperature, which in this case means less Sulphur.

    Triple 7 doesn't use sulphur at all which tells me that the perchlorate content is much higher than in Pyrodex, Sulphur and Potassium Perchlorate makes an interesting flash powder that is friction sensitive and unstable, imagine ramming your ramrod down on that...

    Perchlorates give a higher burnrate than nitrates which would explain the 15% increase in power.

    My conclusions would have to be that Pyrodex is a modified BP where a portion of the nitrate has been substituted for perchlorate and the ratios adjusted to give the same performance as regular BP.

    Triple 7 is an old fashioned chlorate based propellant of the type used as high explosive from the civil war up to WW1 with Potassium Nitrate included to boost the smoke.

    I'd say that anything else they put in would have very little to do with the burning proerties and more to do with manufacturing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  2. raa-7

    raa-7 Member

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    Thanks Ryden,at first guess,I said maybe potasium perchlorate might be in the Pyrodex,because of it's explosive abilities.And yeah, that would be pretty dangerous to use the ram rod on potassium perchlorate and sulfer :eek: I would'nt want to be the guy doin it, or even be next to someone doing that :uhoh:
     
  3. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    Hmm. Kind of leaves us with a logical conundrum, doesn't it?

    Since potassium perchlorate and sulfur mixed form an impact sensitive flash powder, and it appears they are mixed together in 777, and since several thousand black powder shooters use 777 in their guns (loading with a ramrod and thus subjecting the 777 to an impact load), one would expect at least a few incidents of accidental discharge resulting from the loading causing the potassium perchlorate and sulfur mixture to go high order.

    But there seems to be no anecdotal evidence that those incidents occur.

    So what am I missing here?
     
  4. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

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    Sulfur wasn't listed under 777 in Ryden's post.
     
  5. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    :eek:That would explain it.
     
  6. Ryden

    Ryden Member

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    I'm sorry Mykeal, it's my fault for not being able to write a coherent sentence.
    :neener:
     
  7. Ryden

    Ryden Member

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    A bit of further reading, anyone ever used the IMR White Hots?

    Its Potassium Nitrate and Potassium Perchlorate and nothing else according to the MSD
    http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/MSDS Files/Muzzleloading/WhiteHots.pdf

    This sounds a bit iffy, they are both oxidizers and no fuel is mentioned.
    With chlorates, usually a metal fuel such as aluminium is used but that can't be the case here as that would make the powder grey.

    When I was young and immortal I used to make my own fireworks, when I got kids I grew chicken (or smart) and stopped doing them, but the only chlorate compositions I recall that used something white as fuel are the whistle mixes, and those you'd never want to put into a gun.

    I suspect that the fuel here is sugar of some kind, I bet I'm not the only one here that used to mix herbicide and sugar to blow something up as a kid :)
     
  8. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    Ah, yeah, my wife often uses the same excuse...;)
     
  9. 303tom

    303tom member

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    NO one maker of a Black Powder Substitute is more powerful than another.
     
  10. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

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    Is there a hidden message in this sentence or do you mean that the product produced is not more powerful???
     
  11. raa-7

    raa-7 Member

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    Shoot,, If anyone on this forum doesnt make sense, or makes iNcoheReNt posts it WoULd Be mE ! At least you guys are nice about it,some forums will just about hang a guy for messin up :p
     
  12. raa-7

    raa-7 Member

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    I have heard that tripple -7 is more powerful grain for grain.I have not tried it out yet, but want to.
     
  13. 303tom

    303tom member

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    I found this , so I would say watch what you are doing............
    Triple Seven may be, volume for volume, more powerful and users should follow load recommendations from the manufacturer.
     
  14. Ryden

    Ryden Member

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    That's what we're talking about here when we say that something is more powerful.

    Black powder is measured by volume rather than weight as modern powders are and if you put in the normal volume of 777 in your gun you have an overload of 15%, hence more powerful.
     
  15. raa-7

    raa-7 Member

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    I hope that anyone shooting Bp knows that, and doesnt take any of it for granted.
     
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