Quantcast

Black powder/substitutes- school me?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Michael Tinker Pearce, Apr 28, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Michael Tinker Pearce

    Michael Tinker Pearce Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2016
    Messages:
    1,347
    I'm starting to reload black powder into cartridges like .44 Colt and .450 Adams. My favorite LGS carried Pyrodex and Triple 7. Of the two the Pyrodex is much less expensive.

    Can someone school me on the differences and relative merits/issues with these two powders?
     
  2. grter

    grter Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    849
    This information is for reference use only and I am not telling you to do it. I absolutely take no responsibility for any errors on my part or otherwise so proceed at your own risk.

    Pyrodex is very close to black powder but in my opinion more corrosive. Clean immediately after use.

    [ (NA you are using cartridge cases sorry) Do not confuse Pyrodex pellets with regular Pyrodex. They are not the same. If the pellets are damaged (broken) while loading you can wind up with dangerous pressure spikes when firing. Pellets unlike regular Pyrodex, which is very close in formulation and performance to real black powder, are some sort of funky rocket fuel like concoction. They have a good amount of power but make sure to fire whole intact pellets. They are formulated and designed to fire as whole pellets other wise performance is erratic at best. downright dangerous at worse, and dangerous overall. NA]

    Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive like real black powder so it is not subject to the same strict storage requirements and hazmat fees that have driven many businesses and individuals to not want to bother dealing with it. As a result Pyrodex is cheap, widely available. It works fine as a substitute when real black powder can not be found.

    777 (triple 7) Is a hot high pressure sugar concoction that burns a lot cleaner than any of the Pyrodex products but can also leave a real hard ring of crud that is hard to clean if you don't keep on top things. I do not know or remember off hand the nature of their pellets but when using 777 powder the manufacturer recommends using 15% less powder by volume than if you were using black powder. That is supposed to give an equivalent charge.

    [(NA you are using cartridge cases) 777 is also harder to ignite than pyrodex or real black powder so I would make sure your ignition channels are nice and clean. I am not sure if it would work well in a flint lock type of ignition system unless it is at least primed with real black powder and even then I am not sure if it can be reliable enough. Others may have more info.]

    Triple seven is a hot high performing cleaner burning powder than Pyrodex and black.

    [ (NA you are using cartridge cases)It probably was made for inlines with straight direct ignition channels and may not ignite reliably with ignition systems that use flash channels which do not allow a hot enough spark to reach the charge. That being said many people do use it in standard percussion cap guns but not all standard percussion guns are the same.]

    Since you are using cartridge cases you should not have any ignition problems. I wonder if Blackhorn 209, a hot very clean burning (almost smokeless) black powder substitute, would work better.

    Since black powder and all the subs need to have zero gap between projectile and powder (projectile must be seated on top of powder) to fire without risk of dangerously high pressures (ie explosion) you will be limited to a specific volume of powder in accordance to the size of your cases however some people use fillers such as cream of wheat when a reduced charge for optimal performance is needed as well as a higher volume of powder than that reduced charge can provide alone without the use of a filler. In this way you can conjure up a charge that works best for you.

    Is there a ton of this info already in this forum and other places in general ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  3. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    11,960
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    I've only loaded .45 LC with BP, so my experience is very limited, but I stuck with actual FFFG (Goex) even though I had Pyrodex 'P' also. I knew actual BP would work fine, and it did.
     
  4. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,651
    Location:
    South Eastern Illinois
    Generally subs have a higher ignition point than 'real' bp.
    Generally subs are more corrosive or dirtier than BP
    Nobody at the BP clubs I frequent uses substitutes.
     
  5. PapaG

    PapaG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    4,303
    Location:
    Il
    In most cases there is little advantage to using Pyrodex or 777 instead of real black. All are hygroscopic, will corrode, and need immediate cleaning. I'm about to start playing with Blackhorn which is actually a smokeless bp sub. Pyrodex, at least the original formulation, was extremely pressure sensitive, so much so that I had to develop a ramrod with a spring arrangement so I could seat the balls uniformly. I'd make sure the loads in cartridges were exactly the same and provided some compression by the seated bullet. I'd suggest a lube like that made by TC, or CVA to keep fouling soft. Wash cases in soap and water immediately and don't worry if they turn black.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
    robhof and Michael Tinker Pearce like this.
  6. frogfurr

    frogfurr Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,261
    Location:
    Preble County, OH
    No experience reloading BP cartridges. Only muzzle loaders. I did learn that , after spending all day in the woods on a rainy day, BP worked much better than the substitutes. And BP has better accuracy.
     
  7. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    17,804
    Location:
    Happy Valley, UT
    I have tried 777, pyrodex loose, and pyrodex pellets in my cap and balls. I don't foresee ever loading anything but black powder again.
     
  8. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Texas
    I have never seen any information stating that Triple 7 has higher pressures. It is a volume for volume substitute for BP. If it created higher pressures they’d state it needed to be reduced. And they used to state a 15% reduction was necessary to achieve the velocity/performance as BP, but they weren’t comparing it to Swiss or Olde Eynsford, which both slightly outperform it volume for volume.

    Triple 7 isn’t nearly as corrosive as Pyrodex or BP. A fellow did a test comparing BP to Pyrodex and T7. After 4 days in his garage during the summer with what he explained as high humidity (MO?) he used a wire brush to clean up the steel plates but just wiped off the T7 plate. These were his results:

    F7-A1875-F-4-E2-D-4-ECF-822-B-DD7-ADA856-D4-C.jpg e85 gas stations in my area

    I don’t recall info regarding loading Pyrodex in cartridges as I dislike the fouling and the performance is lacking in pistols, but T7 is very sensitive to compression in cartridges. You can get pressure spikes due to over compression. I believe they also stated not to use any fillers.
     
  9. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    689
    "Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%" If a powder delivers more velocity for the same volume, it has to be producing more pressure. Because science.

    ns.hodgdon.com/loading.html

    Other than the ability to get it at Cabela's, or wherever, there is ZERO benefit to the substitutes. Rodwah's friend's steel plates in his mother's basement provides ZERO useful evidence. BP AND its substitutes are corrosive. Period.

    Old Eynsford and Swiss, as mentioned above, deliver at least as good and likely better performance than any of the substitutes. Granularity, in these brands at least, offers a much better and more consistent indication of burn rate than the subs. If you are loading limited amounts of pistol caliber cartridges, T7 is not horrible, provided you use copious amounts of good lube. If you are going to use percussion pistols, and BP pistol and rifle cartridges, suck up the HAZMAT fees and get the real Holy Black. In any event, welcome to the dark side !
     
  10. Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,329
    Location:
    People's Republic of Maryland
    Once upon a time...,
    Black powder was and is classified as an "explosive"...in fact it is the "low explosive" (you've probably seen signs reading Danger High Explosives) THEN lots of regulations on the shipping and storage of BP came about, and the small LGS, the Mom & Pop operations couldn't meet storage requirements nor justify the added shipping expenses, so they stopped carrying powder.

    Then along came Pyrodex..., which IS black powder BUT has a much lower sulfur content, and a mixture of Potassium Nitrate and Potassium Percholorate.

    Original European black powder, which was really a mixed gunpowder...we're talkin' like 15th century..., had very low or no sulfur, and needed a heated wire to set it off, so that was about 1400 degrees to the modern stuff which is detonated at under 900 degrees. So they reverse engineered black powder, and added the percholorate, and THUS....tougher to cause it to ignite, and when not compressed, it burned, instead of exploding. Then they added back a bit of the sulfur, so that caps could trigger it at a lower temp, and voila, it complied with all of the shipping and storage laws. LGS and Mom & Pop gunshops were back in business.

    Alas though, it doesn't work well in flinters.... BUT you're loading cartridges and shells.

    SO I've loaded both. I like magnum primers in .45 Colt Pyrodex P cartridges. Can't hurt. For shotshells, 70 grains of RS is 2.5 dram, which is a rather popular old black powder load for shotshells, from 3/4 of an ounce up to an ounce. I tried AA plastic shot cups and they melted something fierce in my shotgun barrels, and I simply could not get the plastic out, until a buddy gave me "original formula", Hoppe's #9 that his father had found. It originally had benzine, as cordite and black powder loaded shotshells with the early plastic wads would make a mess of barrels. Worked like a charm but you have to carefully dispose of the cleaning patches as benzine causes lung cancer.

    So re-load shotshells with 1/2" actual fiber wads, OR maybe get some Gunscrubber or Brake Cleaner spray to be sure you can melt out the plastic hull residue.

    LD
     
  11. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Texas
    I’d love to see your empirical evidence that T7 produces higher pressures.

    I’d also like to see how you refute the evidence provided by the steel plates and state that T7 is just as corrosive.

    I’m certainly not saying T7 isn’t corrosive, but it’s not nearly as quick setting as BP or Pyrodex, which was shown with the steel plates.

    Oh, and your condescending remarks aren’t necessary. Not sure why you feel the need to be a prick.
     
  12. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    689
    The manufacturer has provided the empirical evidence.

    And precisely because you are, as here in this very post, frequently quite arrogant, and offering poor information as in, for example, your Wayne's World corrosion test, your pompous presentation of often ill-informed views as expertise or fact requires address. You have opinions. Feel free to share them. As opinions, they are as valuable as what we paid to hear them. Try not to hold them in such high regard.
     
  13. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Texas
    I’d love to see your empirical evidence that T7 produces higher pressures.

    I’d also like to see how you refute the evidence provided by the steel plates and state that T7 is just as corrosive.

    I’m certainly not saying T7 isn’t corrosive, but it’s not nearly as quick setting as BP or Pyrodex, which was shown.
    Post this empirical evidence please.

    Arrogant??? Your words are misplaced.

    Wayne’s world test? Please do explain how you’ve come up with this assumption? And at the same time please provide some evidence to the contrary.

    I’ll-informed views as well. Where is your informed views? You have provided nothing to refute anything. You just run off at the mouth spewing drivel. This is The High Road, where it’s expected that members act with a bit of dignity. You’ve not done so. Maybe you should relax a bit, and come back with something more than your biting words.
     
    woodnbow and Armored farmer like this.
  14. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    689
    Stop it. Take a breath. Read the information from the manufacturer that was provided. Reflect.
     
  15. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    1,286
    Mr. Michael tinker pearce, i think most of us (not all) will say that our experience with pyrodex wasnt always a good one. Its just has a fouling thats faster corroding than the the othet subs and black powder. I for one will never use it in any of my guns, some dont have any issues with it but as i live in a very humid environment i have had nothing but issues using it. But if you live in a dry arrid region then i suppose you may have a different experience and end up liking to use it. Although Tripple 7's usually more expensive...it is a whole lot cleaner burning and can make your shooting experience all the more enjoyable. It seems to burn a bit hotter than pyrodex grain for grain too. If youre dead set on shooting subs might i suggest you try Alliant Black MZ? Its very clean burning, its fouling isnt as fast or aggressive when it comes to being corrosive. I say this bcuz all black powder and subs are corrosive..some just work faster and more "aggressive" on the steel as rodwas post shows. His post pretty much shows the experience ive had with black powder and subs...with the pyrodex fouling being far worse on the steel. Black mz is very inexpensive if you go through sportsmans warehouse...its 9.99 a pound...so for about the same price as one pound of triple 7 you can get a pound of black mz shipped to you to try out. I personally prefer it over triple 7, basically all the benefits of triple 7 but way cheaper. Just my opinion on the matter, best of luck bud.
     
    Michael Tinker Pearce likes this.
  16. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Texas
    That’s very funny. You are the one off the rails and I’m the one who should “stop it and take a breath.”

    Oh, I’ve read all of that as well as what they used to have stated, which was much more in-depth, but now missing. Please show where they stated it created higher pressures over black powder.

    I’d also like to see your proof that it is just as corrosive as BP or Pyrodex. Wait, nothing still? Nothing to show how wrong I am, and that I need to eat my words? Come on, something, right? Especially since you are this science expert...

    Not once have you provided anything to contradict anything. Nothing. Are you just full of hot air and insults, behaving like a pissed off teenager? Come on, you must have something that has bolstered you and your rebellious antics. Something...
     
  17. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Texas
    What needs to be reflected on is your behavior. Maybe you should stop, take a breath, reflect, and learn something.
     
  18. Offthehook

    Offthehook Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2014
    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Myrtle Beach, SC
    Did not see anything about APP American Pioneer Powder. I shoot cowboy action and shoot thousands of 45 colt, 44-40, 45-70 and 38-55 during the year. It is expensive but for me it is great for multi day shoots as I do not have to clean my pistols or rifles during matches or between days. In fact after a long drive home I may not get to cleaning for a few days after a shoot and have had no issues with corrosion. One exception is the powder itself or the fine residue you get while loading will stick to your dies or other metal and adhere to it like cement so I clean my equipment after every loading session.

    This powder is very smokey. Way more than BP. It is much more accurate, especially in my long range rifles than BP.
     

    Attached Files:

    robhof, arcticap and TheOutlawKid like this.
  19. noelf2

    noelf2 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    328
    Location:
    Virginia
    I have used many substitutes, and I also make black powder as many others in these forums do. I prefer real BP, but not that I believe it is any more or less corrosive than Pyrodex. I really don't care because I clean up my guns within a day of firing BP or Pyrodex. From my past experience, I can add a bit more credence to what rodwha says about 777. It is way less corrosive than BP. I frequently leave my inline muzzleloader somewhat dirty after shooting 777 pellets for a whole hunting season. I do run a spit patch followed by a dry patch down the bore after each shot before reloading. I can leave my inline loaded like that for a whole season and there are no ill effects at all. I clean it thoroughly at the end of ML season. I tried that once with BP (just one spit and dry patch) and, under the same conditions I had a light rust in the bore of my hawken after just 5 days, and that is in a temperature controlled safe. I pulled the ball, mopped the heck out of it, and lapped it a bit with some flitz, and there was no harm done. I'll never do that again with BP.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  20. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    1,286
    +1 on what mr.offthehook said. APP is one of the very popular subs used by those who compete...and they need their guns to perform without a hitch and part of that is selecting the proper powder and lube combo. APP and Black MZ are somewhat similar (even have the same patent #) although for more power Black MZ has tested having higher chrono speeds, but both burn very very clean. If you ever attend the competitions you will see these subs especially APP at the shooting tables..and that alone tells you something.
     
    Michael Tinker Pearce and robhof like this.
  21. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Texas
    I guess since I’m so arrogant and pompous I need to
    Pull up a chair son. Your “science” is quite flawed. Maybe you should try opening a book some time and reading as you clearly don’t understand what it is you are talking about. Velocity and pressure are two very different things, as is volume. Since you obviously haven’t read, or didn’t understand, I’ll post a few pages from my Lyman Black Powder Handbook 2nd Ed to alleviate your ignorance. But you are on your own as far as your attitude problem.

    673-DD263-1-FDC-4-A51-B3-C6-6-C8-FA79-BC9-E9.jpg

    6641-E1-C5-BFA0-4034-BEF4-4-AB596-DB995-D.jpg where can i find the nearest gas station

    05-B0-AA15-C2-E3-4716-96-B4-6296957-B6587.jpg

    Or maybe your next comment will belittle the testing Lyman did in their grandpa’s barn out back as it doesn’t mean anything either...

    In this day and age of lawsuits Hodgdon would absolutely state that a reduction of powder would be necessary so as not to exceed the max listed charge for any given black powder firearm. Since you know so much about T7 and went to the effort of providing a link, where is that warning? And who’s BP does it produce more pressure than? By your ignorant claim T7 would have to produce less pressure than Swiss or Olde Eynsford, both black powder. And there doesn’t seem to be any disclaimers about over pressurizing firearms on my Olde E bottles. Nor does it say anything on their site (also Hodgdon once they bought Goex).
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
    TheOutlawKid and Armored farmer like this.
  22. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    689
    Rodwha, this exactly the point. You've gone off half cocked. Again. You are ranting, have presented materials that have no bearing on T7, and have ignored the information from Hodgdon, the manufacturer, that doesn't fit your bizarre personal afront at anything that seems like a critique of T7. It's simply not rational behavior.
     
  23. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Texas
    The only one who has been going off half cocked is yourself.

    What was presented had everything to do with your statement about “science”, your misinformed idea that velocity and pressure connected, which they are not.

    Again you have not posted anything to refute what I’ve said or pointed out, or to backup what you cannot prove. Your statements have been baseless.

    By all means do show me what I’ve ignored concerning Hodgdon’s product. I’ve asked a few times and you seem to just ignore it. My guess would be that there isn’t anything you can produce, but I’ll wait.

    I’m also uncertain as to how you came about me disturbed by anything “negative” concerning T7. I’ve only been disturbed by your lack of civility and manners, that you haven’t been able to hold an adult conversation. But what you’ve stated at times is certainly untrue, and that I’d absolutely confront and with facts. You’ve not done this. Instead you just run off at the mouth and act like a child in need of time out.

    By all means show me how I’m wrong and I’ll graciously accept it. But I’ll need more than “because you said so”, especially when there’s nothing to support it.
     
  24. rodwha

    rodwha Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Texas
    I’m sorry that I allowed that fellow to drag this thread off course. I’ll ignore anything else not backed up by facts so that your thread can hopefully return to its intended direction and give you the answers you were looking for. My apologies.
     
  25. Cowhide Cliff

    Cowhide Cliff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Messages:
    679
    Pyrodex is just nasty stuff, I don't care for T7 as it's harder to ignite and leaves a nasty hard crusty residue but if I couldn't get real black powder T7 is the best choice I've tried that is available.

    Of all the subs I ever tried APP was the best although it may have been a little underpowered but I don't think it's available anymore.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice