Black Rifles ?

[madcratebuilder]

They are no worse than any other entry-level AR. Most rifles will work for most shooters most of the time. You have to drive an AR pretty hard to expose the differences between a $700 rifle and a $1500 rifle.

+1

The best deal on AR's in the $600-800 price range is from Palmetto State Armory. High quality barrels and bolts that are the heart of the AR system.

 

[nastynatesfish]

my first ar was a dpms oracle. shot the crap out of it with not a hitch. i swapped uppers because i wanted a forward assist and a dust cover. my second was a dpms 204. 24" bull barrel. shot the crap out of it too just got tired with the round. sold it for a 6.8spcll. im waiting for my 260 to get here. im sure itll have no problems either.

 

[dscottdennison]

I try to stay out of these, but the guys with the "you get what you pay for" attitude are the guys keeping one of my local "car salesman" gun shops in business. The old car salesman "you get what you pay for" line makes me want to vomit.

I have an $800 or so AR that I BUILT that I will put up against any $1,500+ AR any day. As a matter of fact, I went into the "car salesman" gun shop before I built it. The EXACT rifle that I built (without expensive brand names stamped all over it) in that shop was "ON SALE" for around $1,500. I have a benchrest Remington 700 that I BUILT for $1,100 or so that I will put up against any $4,000 off the shelf "accurized" 700 or clone.

The key words here are "I BUILT". If you go into a store and buy things that are finished by some union line worker making $35 an hour to push a button, don't be surprised when those things are 3X as expensive as they should be.

If you TRULY understand how things work, what makes a good design, and etc. instead of blindly buying whatever is the most expensive because it must be the "best", then you can usually make, build, or tweak something to make it just as good or even better for less money.

I do this for a living.

I realize I am probably an extreme case and not everyone has the desire, ability, equipment, or etc. to make/build/tweak things, but even buying off the shelf, America needs to get out of the idea that the most expensive thing MUST be the "best"

 

[MachIVshooter]

The old car salesman "you get what you pay for" line makes me want to vomit.

You certainly don't always get what you pay for. But you NEVER get what you don't pay for.

 

[dscottdennison]

You certainly don't always get what you pay for. But you NEVER get what you don't pay for.

Actually, my point was that yes, you can. I can name many, many things that I can get the top dollar quality with a little extra effort without paying top dollar money.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I can name many, many things that I can get the top dollar quality with a little extra effort without paying top dollar money.

To that end, it's a matter of perception. And as with anything, the cost-to-benefit ratio narrows drastically as you get toward the top end. IOW, you can pick up a mediocre unit for $500, a good unit for $1,000, a great unit might be $1,800 and the cream of the crop is $4k. The very best isn't 4 times better than the good, even though it's 4 times the price.

Let's look at tools instead of guns.........

I wrench for a living. There are obviously many levels of tool quality. For the average joe, china-made Harbor Freight, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. tools will do pretty much everything he needs at a minimal cost. So dude feels he got a great deal.

For the shadetree, a few busted knuckles will convince him that he needs to step it up a notch. For this guy, Sears Craftsman represents a good value. They're much better than the bottom rung tools.

However, for those of us doing it professionally who have wrecked countless tools and fasteners and lost time and money on account of Crafstman being a mid-grade, we end up spending the big bucks for Matco, Snap-On, etc.

A Snap-On socket set may cost 10 times what a Craftsman one does and 30 times what a Harbor Freight set does. For some, it's way too much money and does not represent a good value. These are the people who feel they didn't get what they paid for. But for those of us who's livelihood depends on it, we need the best, and it's absolutely worth paying top dollar for something that works better and saves time, pain and aggravation.

 

[dscottdennison]

You have a good point. I certainly understand about tools. There are definitely areas where my above points (or ranting) will not apply. Wrenches, for instance, are more expensive for very definite reasons, as you pointed out. The higher quality metals and manufacturing processes cost more money. That cannot be argued. It is when we get to things that are IDENTICAL where one costs more money simply because it has a name stamped on it which is what bothers me.

 

[JustinJ]

I try to stay out of these, but the guys with the "you get what you pay for" attitude are the guys keeping one of my local "car salesman" gun shops in business. The old car salesman "you get what you pay for" line makes me want to vomit.

I'm not so much concerned with "getting what i pay for" as much as "knowing what i got". Hence, I like Colt.

 

[jrdolall]

I bought a DPMS Panther Lite NIB last year and have had zero issues with the gun. No jams using Tula ammo. I put a red dot sight and it is reasonable accurate at 100 yards freehand. I have not fired 1000's of rounds through it, nor will I, but it is as good as my Bushmaster for $300 less.

 

[dscottdennison]

I guess maybe I can clarify with an example. I know I ramble sometimes.

I wrench for a living.

Something came to mind when you said you are a wrencher that you can probably relate to. In the past, I was shopping for a Dana 44 axle for my Jeep. I soon learned to not let shops know that I was shopping for a Jeep because the exact same Dana 44 components from the hundreds of other vehicles they can come from are double the price when they say Jeep on them.

 

[dscottdennison]

Well, I completely hijacked this thread.

Anyway, OP, get whatever AR suits your wants, needs, and price range. I was just trying to say don't let the salesman tell you that brand X mil spec 7071-T6 receiver, mil spec barrel and whatever else is any different than brand Y's.

 

[MachIVshooter]

It is when we get to things that are IDENTICAL where one costs more money simply because it has a name stamped on it which is what bothers me.

Now that's a whole different animal, and yes, it certainly applies in the AR world (and firearm world as a whole).

We see it with tools, too. The big names do repackage and relabel many things and sell them at a higher cost. Hence why my taps and dies are all labeled Vermont American or Irwin; I'll not pay twice as much for the same taps and dies to come in a blow-molded Snap-On or Mac case.

This is where researching pays off.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Research is definitely key. That's one of the reasons why THR is so important. I like the analogy with tools, but there is one subtle difference. Marketing. Now I'm pretty much an idiot when it comes to tools, so perhaps a more learned gearhead can correct me, but I would bet that people don't buy top of the line wrenches so that they can feel like they are "just like the best mechanics". But look at some gun owners. Some gunowners do buy guns or accessories so that they can be using the same thing Delta or Devgru uses. There is an image there that I would guess doesn't apply to tools that often. Gun companies know this, and market their products to take advantage of this. Why do gun magazine ads always show cops and soldiers carrying their weapons, and not regular guys at the range?

Now don't get me wrong, there is a difference between a Colt and a Bushmaster AR (I have both and they both shoot well, but I'd only take the Colt to a class). There's a difference between Tapco and Magpul. Between Burris and Trijicon.

But before you make the purchase, ask yourself "Do I really need to buy the best?" Are you just buying it because of the good feelings you get from knowing you have top of the line? Or are you buying it because you take a lot of carbine classes or competitions and you really can't afford to have it break down in the middle? Don't let the marketing people tell you what you need. Decide how you plan on shooting it, what your priorities are, and go from there.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I would bet that people don't buy top of the line wrenches so that they can feel like they are "just like the best mechanics".

I'd say that's pretty accurate. The professional lines don't really advertise to Joe Schmoe, nor do make them particularly avaialble to the masses. Not like you can run down to your local Matco retail store.

As an aside, like guns, there are parent companies that manufacture several lines. Danahur makes both Craftsman and Matco, Stanley makes Mac. You can often see the resemblance, too. However, the different lines are not the same quality. Just as Mossberg makes the Maverick 88 line, but an 88 is not a 590; If you buy a Maverick, You're getting a Mossberg, but it's not the same gun.

But look at some gun owners. Some gunowners do buy guns or accessories so that they can be using the same thing Delta or Devgru uses.

Very true. Guns and Golf Clubs, huh? Lol.

But before you make the purchase, ask yourself "Do I really need to buy the best?" Are you just buying it because of the good feelings you get from knowing you have top of the line? Or are you buying it because you take a lot of carbine classes or competitions and you really can't afford to have it break down in the middle? Don't let the marketing people tell you what you need. Decide how you plan on shooting it, what your priorities are, and go from there.

Always sound advice.

Also, figure out if you're paying for core quality, or just some fancy pakaging and bells & whistles. When you buy a Chrysler 300 instead of a Dodge Charger, you're not getting a better car. You're getting different cosmetics and fancier trim at a higher price tag. But when you buy a Colt or Armalite instead of a DPMS or Bushmaster, your extra dollars really are paying for a better gun.

 

[dscottdennison]

Yep, sales and marketing is the root of all evil.

Also, figure out if you're paying for core quality, or just some fancy pakaging and bells & whistles. When you buy a Chrysler 300 instead of a Dodge Charger, you're not getting a better car. You're getting different cosmetics and nicer trim.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Nice.

 

[Captains1911]

The concept that seems to often get missed in threads like these is that in today's market, better, higher quality rifles that are built with higher quality parts, with a greater degree of QA/QC, and attention to proper assembly, can be had for essentially the same price as their lesser quality counterparts. So whether or not a person "needs" the better rifle, why in the hell would any reasonable person pay the same amount of money for an inferior product?

 

[dscottdennison]

Again, marketing. BS like "This is what they use over there" and "You get what you pay for" will make somebody spend more money for something of the same core quality. That is also where this "better" and "inferior" talk comes from when they are really the same level of core quality. So it's not that the "inferior" ones are really inferior. It's that the "better" ones are more expensive for other reasons.

 

[Captains1911]

People who claim that all rifles are of equal quality are either uneducated, or in denial over the fact that they bought a lower quality product before doing their homework. Don't be one of those people.

 

[dscottdennison]

People who claim that their $1,500 expensive roll marked rifles are of markedly higher quality than anything else are either uneducated, or in denial over the fact that they spent WAY too much money before doing their homework. Don't be one of those people.

Obviously we aren't comparing a plastic airsoft gun to a $2,000 Larue. CORE QUALITY... a forged piece of 7071-T6 is a forged piece of 7071-T6.

 

[Captains1911]

Who said anything about $1500 rifles? Even Colt 6920s can be had for less than $1000 today, and yes, they are of higher quality than DPMS. There are others that do better than DPMS that are closer in price.

 

[dastardly-D]

Black Rifle

Well I certainly got a ton of info on this thread and I really enjoyed the discussion ! There is a whole lot of truth to glean out of all this,some outright hostility towards the Freedom Group,who I know nothing about. The deal is $550 for a 16'' Flat top,no sights.Gathering what I read,it shouldn't cost too much to build this up to a reasonable fun gun for 200 yard shots at groundhogs,rocks,cans and paper.Hopefully,anyhow.Thank you guys....

 

[dscottdennison]

The point is that you are paying for the final quality. The fact that a master gunsmith hand polished and installed everything, etc., etc.

Many of us are willing and able (and even enjoy) doing all of that ourselves. Therefore, $1,500 rifle "quality" can be had for "DPMS" prices. That is all I am saying.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Did you spend $1,500 because it's a better rifle? Or is it a "better" rifle because you spent $1,500 on it?

The two not the same.

 

[kfgk14]

The probem is QC and QA. If you're lucky enough to find a good one, wonderful. That's great, enjoy the rifle. But, they're known to use sub-standard manufacturing techniques and materials, meaning the rifles don't follow the established military specifications. You will be told that DPMS guns are fielded abroad by our military, this is a load of crap. Never have they been, and until they change their practices, never will they be.

Their customer service is apparently a nightmare, I didn't attempt it when I was dumb enough to buy a DPMS gun years ago, and it failed me miserably. I simply repaired the failure and returned the gun to the shop. They've since stopped dealing in DPMS because of how many issues they saw.

For what it's worth, I'd advise you to just buy a PSA rifle/carbine, and then be happy with a quality firearm. Don't play with DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic, etc.

Now, I won't tell you that my rifle is the best in the world (I paid $1457.75 total for it, shipping and tools included). That would be lying. It lacks some ambidextrous features. It is not a full-billet upper and lower, which some may argue is degrading my accuracy. But the components are mil-spec, and come from manufacturers with good reputations. The gun had one double-feed, due to a magazine which wasn't fully seated. Operator error, the gun had no fault in it.

I trust my rifle, knowing it was assembled to mil-spec, above anything less (to include Bushmaster, DPMS, Oly, RRA, etc.). I'd stand my gun next to any Colt 6920, or BCM carbine, or PSA gun, and I maintain mine is equal in quality.

Do I sit on some pedestal, holding in disdain other weapons for personal reasons? No. A DPMS/Bushy/RRA/Oly gun doesn't meet my standards (mil-spec, QA, CS, QC). I prefer my rifle, personally, over most others because it is more ergonomic for a left-handed person. If DPMS, Oly, RRA, and Bushy all started meeting mil-spec standards, and provided the levels of QA, QC and CS I expect from the manufacturer of a weapon I bet my life on when I go to bed each night, I might own a DPMS/Oly/RRA/Bushy. They don't do those things. So I don't use them.

I don't see this as snobbery. And frankly, if I'm betting my life that the weapon is gonna work if some thug(s) come into my home, I have every right to maintain stringent standards.

 

[dscottdennison]

Did you spend $1,500 because it's a better rifle? Or is it a "better" rifle because you spent $1,500 on it?

The two not the same.

Exactly. And I would argue that it is a better rifle if you did NOT spend $1,500 on it.