pinstripe
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Pinstripe takes a bow. Your welcome snakeman.
Black Rifles ?
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pinstripe
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PINSTRIPE TAKES A BOW! You're welcome snakeman.
ugaarguy
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I'd like to offer some more perspective if I may.
I own a "high end" AR, a DDM4V1. I also own a "low end" S&W M&P-15 Sport. The Sport does not have an HPT/MPI barrel. The barrel steel is 4140. However, it has 5R rifling and is black nitrided (Melonited) for durability. They also use the correct F height front sight base for the flat top upper receiver. S&W's bolts are individually HPT/MPI tested, and their carrier keys are properly staked. They use the correct 5 coil heavy duty extractor spring with black insert, and Crane o-ring spring surround. S&W uses mil spec receiver extensions, and properly stakes the castle nut. They also cut some corners on the Sport: there is no forward assist, no dust cover, and the and the included handguards lack the aluminum heat shield.
I still bought the Sport because I felt that S&W cut costs in less critical areas, and kept higher cost parts in the most critical areas. The Sport is also in the same sub $650 price range as the base model DPMS rifles. There are quantifiable differences in both materials & build quality of S&W's and DPMS' base model rifles. There are also quantifiable differences in the materials on my M&P Sport and my DDM4V1.
You don't have to buy a super high end rifle to get quality. I would just get familiar with the features & build processes on AR type rifles, and decide what features you need or want.
I own a "high end" AR, a DDM4V1. I also own a "low end" S&W M&P-15 Sport. The Sport does not have an HPT/MPI barrel. The barrel steel is 4140. However, it has 5R rifling and is black nitrided (Melonited) for durability. They also use the correct F height front sight base for the flat top upper receiver. S&W's bolts are individually HPT/MPI tested, and their carrier keys are properly staked. They use the correct 5 coil heavy duty extractor spring with black insert, and Crane o-ring spring surround. S&W uses mil spec receiver extensions, and properly stakes the castle nut. They also cut some corners on the Sport: there is no forward assist, no dust cover, and the and the included handguards lack the aluminum heat shield.
I still bought the Sport because I felt that S&W cut costs in less critical areas, and kept higher cost parts in the most critical areas. The Sport is also in the same sub $650 price range as the base model DPMS rifles. There are quantifiable differences in both materials & build quality of S&W's and DPMS' base model rifles. There are also quantifiable differences in the materials on my M&P Sport and my DDM4V1.
You don't have to buy a super high end rifle to get quality. I would just get familiar with the features & build processes on AR type rifles, and decide what features you need or want.
dscottdennison
Member
The DDM4 is actually what I was comparing to at the "car salesman" gun store I was talking about earlier.
Are the S&W barrels actually 5R? That's an Obermeyer rifling contour. I am confused by the Daniel Defense site. Only the "button swaged" (button rifled) ones have 4150 stamped on them. Are they all actually 11595B certified, or just "tested"?
Are the S&W barrels actually 5R? That's an Obermeyer rifling contour. I am confused by the Daniel Defense site. Only the "button swaged" (button rifled) ones have 4150 stamped on them. Are they all actually 11595B certified, or just "tested"?
in computer world everything is clear and be quantified, we know pentium 4 is faster than 3, 2TB disk hold twice as much data as 1TB disk, so you pay for difference you can see
here in ar-15 world, no difference can be measured or even felt by users, is BCM better than DPMS? who knows, only thing you can see is total strangers' comment on internet and who knows which company they work for? even if there's real difference, users probably will never see or feel the difference so it's moot. so if particular brand makes you feel good, go for it
here in ar-15 world, no difference can be measured or even felt by users, is BCM better than DPMS? who knows, only thing you can see is total strangers' comment on internet and who knows which company they work for? even if there's real difference, users probably will never see or feel the difference so it's moot. so if particular brand makes you feel good, go for it
shootniron
Member
Just reading through this thread and thought that I would actually follow-up on some of the info that ugaarugy posted about the Dpms rifles as I really do not know that much about their parts specifically. I have a family member that bought a new DPMS rifle in Dec so I thought that would be a good one to have a look at as it is current vintage and very close by. So, with a meet-up, we stripped that baby down and had a look-see and posted below are the results in response to ugaarguys posts.
I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not personally own a DPMS of any configuration, however for the $535.00 bucks out the door (showed me the reciept) that this man paid, I think he got a nice regular use AR for the money.JMO
DPMS Panther lite 16 A3
Chamber and bore were chrome lined and it was not special ordered.
According to what I could find on the net, DPMS now batch tests barrels and bolts...I do not know for sure.
Not doubting this statement, but I have been present with folks shooting them and have never seen evidence that this has caused a bobble of any type with any of them.
All keys were properly staked on this rifle.
This example has correct spring and insert.
This rifle has the commericial buffer tube and this is not at all uncommon as all stock makers have stocks to fit both and there is virtually no consequence or having the commercial tube as compared to the mil-spec. In my 25yrs of experience with both types of tubes, I have never had a problem with either...it is a moot point for 99.9% of users.
This statement is correct. DPMS uses a thread compound to hold nut rather than staking. I will add that they are not alone in this practice based on others that I have seen, although staking is more prevalent.
Not hardly.
I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not personally own a DPMS of any configuration, however for the $535.00 bucks out the door (showed me the reciept) that this man paid, I think he got a nice regular use AR for the money.JMO
DPMS Panther lite 16 A3
Chamber and bore were chrome lined and it was not special ordered.
.
According to what I could find on the net, DPMS now batch tests barrels and bolts...I do not know for sure.
Not doubting this statement, but I have been present with folks shooting them and have never seen evidence that this has caused a bobble of any type with any of them.
All keys were properly staked on this rifle.
This example has correct spring and insert.
This rifle has the commericial buffer tube and this is not at all uncommon as all stock makers have stocks to fit both and there is virtually no consequence or having the commercial tube as compared to the mil-spec. In my 25yrs of experience with both types of tubes, I have never had a problem with either...it is a moot point for 99.9% of users.
This statement is correct. DPMS uses a thread compound to hold nut rather than staking. I will add that they are not alone in this practice based on others that I have seen, although staking is more prevalent.
Not hardly.
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ugaarguy
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The Sport, 2nd version T (SKU 811041), new VTAC II, and new MOE MAGPUL SPEC SERIES all have S&W's 5.56 NATO chambered, Melonited, 1:8 5R barrel. The new 300 Whisper model (which is .300 AAC Blackout compatible) uses a 1:7.5 twist 5R bbl.
And a guy who uses his computer for surfing the web & checking email won't ever notice the difference between an Intel Core i series first gen processor and a second gen Sandy Bridge Core i series processor either. So your point is also moot. If the latest & greatest processor, motherboard, hard drive, and graphics card make you feel good go for it.
dscottdennison
Member
just so this doesn't get lost in the other posts
EDIT: posted at the same time. So, are they actually 5R? Or do you mean they are cut rifled. Cut rifled doesn't necessarily mean 5R. Anything about my other questions? I'm thinking about emailing DD
EDIT#2: Wow, I see that they actually do say 5R. I will have to ask Boots if he is getting paid for that. Although, I don't think he ever really "owned" it. Doesn't say if they are cut rifled.
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ugaarguy
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Chrome Moly isn't the same as Chrome lining. Here's DPMS own specs:
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=1066&cat=1891
.
I paid under $600 OTD for my M&P-15 Sport. When PSA gets their complete M4A1 carbines back in they should be right at $600 as they originally were.
Not directly stated on their website, but yes, DD has confirmed in e-mail & phone call inquiries from several folks that they do use Mil-B-11595E certified steel in their chrome lined bbls.
EDIT: Wow, we're both posting like crazy. I don't think Obermeyer ever owned 5R rifling, but rather made it popular. If you have direct contact with him that would be great to know. S&W's 5R capability is from T/C Arms, who S&W purchased several years ago largely because of T/C's rifle barrel production capability. This was right around the time that S&W killed the early M&P rifles with outsourced parts, and brought everything in house. Even the conventionally rifled 1:9 chrome lined barrels S&W uses are made by T/C. S&W - T/C made a big deal about letting everyone know that all T/C Icon & Venture bolt rifles are 5R.
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dscottdennison
Member
I guess I will still email DD as well. That seems shady.
I thought Boots trademarked 5R, but now I am thinking that "Obermeyer 5R" is trademarked. Who knows... I have one of them, and it is amazing.
I thought Boots trademarked 5R, but now I am thinking that "Obermeyer 5R" is trademarked. Who knows... I have one of them, and it is amazing.
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with computer sure you can feel the difference even just surfing web since these days web pages are heavy if you don't know. and if you ever do word or image processing or play games the difference is even bigger, unlike ar-15, no matter what brand you use, you can feel NOTHING different in practice, only the little stamp LOOKS different lolAnd a guy who uses his computer for surfing the web & checking email won't ever notice the difference between an Intel Core i series first gen processor and a second gen Sandy Bridge Core i series processor either. So your point is also moot. If the latest & greatest processor, motherboard, hard drive, and graphics card make you feel good go for it.
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ugaarguy
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Maybe you can't feel a difference, but I sure can. Just like you can tell a difference in computers when you run them hard, I can tell a difference in ARs when I run them hard. I've already spelled out several of the quantifiable differences, and YOU'RE the one who refuses to acknowledge them.
Captains1911
Member
This is complete non-sense. Real differences have already been spelled out for you right here in this thread.
Course instructors who see more rounds than probably anybody see certain brands go down more often than others.
I'm not saying everybody needs the higher quality rifle, far from it, but to not acknowledge the fact that there are differences is complete ignorance.
JustinJ
Member
My Colt handles different than my bushy. One big difference is the bushy is overgassed and practically poisons me when shot with a can. The Colt much less so.
i am just curious, say if we do blind test, have colt/dd/bcm/bush/dpms/psa... all in exactly the same configuration, and no one can tell them apart from the looks (all painted same color and precious roll marks all covered), and 1000 rounds, can you tell which is which by handling and shooting?
well i can't, but if you can and think a particular one gives you an edge, by all means get it and more power to you
but i can tell which is bmw which is ford by driving them for 30 secs, easily
well i can't, but if you can and think a particular one gives you an edge, by all means get it and more power to you
but i can tell which is bmw which is ford by driving them for 30 secs, easily
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shootniron
Member
I didn't know BMW made a truck...
they don't? damn
MachIVshooter
Member
I can tell you which is which by the total on the bill I hand to my customers for the same repair, too........
Ford vs. BMW is probably not the analogy you want here. You're comparing expensive refinement (BMW) to affordable durability (Ford). And I'm not a Ford guy........
From those of us who actually just enjoy owning and shooting a firearm just let me say that we all understand that there are more expensive options available. A Mossberg .270 from wallyworld costs $300 and a "quality" one cost $1500 at a real gun shop. If you put a $59 scope on the $300 rifle, assuming it wasn't a combo, and the other guy puts a $1200 Zeiss in his $1500 rifle then he probably has a better setup than the guy with the $300 gun. If they both sit in a deer stand and shoot a deer at 75 yards, after sighting them in, then it is real darned likely that there will be two dead deer lying around. Now if they both go to Colorado, wade across rivers with the guns, drop them from horseback, lay in the snow for 8 hours, and shoot at an elk at 450 yards it is possible that the high dollar gun will outperform the cheap one. Then again maybe not.
shootniron
Member
Now jrdolall, there you go and start getting logic tangled up in this thing...
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Captains1911
Member
What does this have anything to with the fact that for the SAME price as a DPMS, a BETTER rifle can be had? What's so hard to understand about that?
my point has been, an opinion passed around 1000 times doesn't make it a fact
i don't see any proof that colt is better than dpms, only people THINK by whatever reason that's the case
i bet there are some failed dpms, a lot more failed colt, but there are a lot more colt than dpms, so which one has higher rate of failure? no one knows
the only fact about these that we know is colt is being used by military, but being used by military doesn't equate to better quality, that's just fact
as about bcm/dd/... that are *thought* to be better by internet commandos, there are even less data or fact to consider, only thing being passed around are just someone's opinions, maybe they have better websites or more money on the marketing (paid by their buyers), but that doesn't make their rifles better
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Captains1911
Member
This is pointless. All I can say is next time do some research before preaching so strongly on something you obviously know very little about.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
ns66, do you know anything about metallurgy?
If I told you a piece of steel is stronger than a piece of zinc of the same dimensions, would you believe me? Even though I'm just telling you, so it's just my "opinion"?
Certain facts about metals are known to be true. It's called chemistry and physics. The way different steels are rated is a factual representation of their different strengths. A rifle made with one kind of steel IS stronger than one of a weaker kind of steel. That's not an opinion. It isn't "true because internet commandos said 1000 times it is". It's true because science has shown it to be true.
Rifles are made from materials using processes. Certain materials have more strength. Certain manufacturing processes make a material more durable or stronger. That's science, not opinion. When rifle A is made of a weaker steel than rifle B, and rifle A is not treated the same ways in manufacturing than rifle B, rifle B will end up being a more reliable and stronger product. Again, that's science, not opinion.
What about that are you not getting?
If I told you a piece of steel is stronger than a piece of zinc of the same dimensions, would you believe me? Even though I'm just telling you, so it's just my "opinion"?
Certain facts about metals are known to be true. It's called chemistry and physics. The way different steels are rated is a factual representation of their different strengths. A rifle made with one kind of steel IS stronger than one of a weaker kind of steel. That's not an opinion. It isn't "true because internet commandos said 1000 times it is". It's true because science has shown it to be true.
Rifles are made from materials using processes. Certain materials have more strength. Certain manufacturing processes make a material more durable or stronger. That's science, not opinion. When rifle A is made of a weaker steel than rifle B, and rifle A is not treated the same ways in manufacturing than rifle B, rifle B will end up being a more reliable and stronger product. Again, that's science, not opinion.
What about that are you not getting?
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