steelyblue
Member
How do the cor bon powerballs perform?
The ads look impressive, but is that just hype?
The ads look impressive, but is that just hype?
Black Talons
- Thread starter CZ 42
- Start date
- Status
KBintheSLC
Member
Ranger SXT, Gold Dot, Golden Saber. Any of those will do.
CorBon Powerball ammo performs quite well. It is not the same as a simple HP or expanding jacket. The projectile is a lot of small things held together with epoxy or some such.
I experimented with them as a possible ammo type that would make my .32 ACP or .25 ACP guns better for BUG or off duty.
They are very impressive in terms of creating a large wound cavity, but I think they are a little short on penetration, at least in the above rounds. And they are very expensive. Too much so for any reasonable person to buy enough for any kind of training.
I experimented with them as a possible ammo type that would make my .32 ACP or .25 ACP guns better for BUG or off duty.
They are very impressive in terms of creating a large wound cavity, but I think they are a little short on penetration, at least in the above rounds. And they are very expensive. Too much so for any reasonable person to buy enough for any kind of training.
softmentor
Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2007
- Messages
- 22
Black talons were the thing in their day, but technology has improved. BT's were not discontinued because of some high profile media case, but because they came out with a better round: the Ranger. Even Ranger has had a couple of upgrades and the newest round is a top quality self defense round.
If you want a black casing (plated) you could consider TAP from Hornady. Honestly I don't like plated casings as the material is prone to scratching off and building up in your gun. All cleaning aside, I'd rather have all brass casings.
And if there is any BT still around, it's gotta be pretty old. No telling how it's been stored. I'll take fresh ammo any day.
I like Winchester Silvertip even though they are an older technology bullet.
The most popular rounds now seem to be Federal Hydroshock and Winchester Ranger
If you want a black casing (plated) you could consider TAP from Hornady. Honestly I don't like plated casings as the material is prone to scratching off and building up in your gun. All cleaning aside, I'd rather have all brass casings.
And if there is any BT still around, it's gotta be pretty old. No telling how it's been stored. I'll take fresh ammo any day.
I like Winchester Silvertip even though they are an older technology bullet.
The most popular rounds now seem to be Federal Hydroshock and Winchester Ranger
skipjack_1st
Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2007
- Messages
- 47
For any auto loader prone to FTF's, I think the Corbon PowRBall is the answer. I load it in my K40 primarily due to the supposed expansion characteristics inherent in HP's. It just makes sense to me. I've never had the need to fire them other than in practice so I cannot vouch for their performance.
Scorpiusdeus
member
Yep, I hate it when ammo does what it's designed to do...
Scorpiusdeus
member
By no means scientific, but I've done surveys on three or four different gun boards and Gold Dots always lead the pack by a wide margin.
Actualy I am a firm believer in jagged projectiles, and the concept expanding talons is a good one.
If you research how terminal balistics work you will find the actual damage caused by a pistol round (dealing with non-existant or inconsequential hydrostatic shock/damage) is reduced because tissue flows around the pistol round. Sharp or erratic edges will cut more of the tissue that would have otherwise "flowed" around the projectile.
That said most of the hype surrounding Black Talons that has lead to thier prominence and demise was based on false media impressions.
The evil sounding name simply lends itself to that. Black Talon sounds like something out of science fiction, representing a sinister product.
When the media learned it was a lubricant similar to teflon they were coated with, knowing it is a lubricant they assumed it allowed them to slip through body armor.
This is counter to logic as a rapidly expanding projectile will penetrate worse than any other round. The greater the surface area of resistance for a given foot pounds the better body armor would in fact work against it.
Well expanding ammo works to increase the the surface area facing resistance for a larger wound.
The media was just plain wrong. A round for both expansion and penetration can be designed, but it is not what a Black Talon does, or any civilian pistol ammo.
The incorrect logic however likely stems from the fact that ammo actualy designed to penetrate soft body armor is actualy coated in something, not to increase penetration which it does not effect, but to decrease barrel errosion on the gun since the ammo is likely made of a very hard material. The same round without the coating would perform just as well, it would just be rougher on the barrel. Black Talons however are NOT such ammo, being in fact the opposite.
The misconception stuck though, and they were in addition to thier other "evil" features, associated with being better for killing cops (because no criminals use body armor, and the 2nd Amendment doesn't exist precisely to be capable of resisting government equiped tyrant's who in modern times would be wearing body armor
)
This may have actualy saved some officer's lives, as criminals sought one of the worst performers against soft body armor. So I would argue that taking Black Talons off the market actualy increased the danger officer's face as they will no longer have foolish criminals confident in a capability that does not exist. Instead criminals will use other ammo without incorrect assumptions about the capability of the ammo.
Black Talons are really little different than most other expanding ammunition, and since Black Talons by name are now a collector's item they are not worth spending the extra money on for actual use.
A sinister name, a dark color, and the use of relatively new materials in bullets for the time in the form of Teflon (at least to the general public) left them demonized. This has caused many people to believe they are more effective than they really are. Obviously as your post illustrates this trend still exists.
Now all of that said, I would like a commercial round that generates sharp treatment hardened edges that tissue cannot flow around without being knicked, and resists being peeled completely back. I think that will cause more bleeding for a given diameter wound, leading to slightly improved incapacitation. At a much higher cost per round I know a mechanicaly designed round could do exactly that. Having connected petals that only open up to 90 degrees and then are locked into place. Such rounds would however be cost prohibitive to produce or use.
However in light of previous issues, calling them Pink Bunnies might be appropriate.
If you research how terminal balistics work you will find the actual damage caused by a pistol round (dealing with non-existant or inconsequential hydrostatic shock/damage) is reduced because tissue flows around the pistol round. Sharp or erratic edges will cut more of the tissue that would have otherwise "flowed" around the projectile.
That said most of the hype surrounding Black Talons that has lead to thier prominence and demise was based on false media impressions.
The evil sounding name simply lends itself to that. Black Talon sounds like something out of science fiction, representing a sinister product.
When the media learned it was a lubricant similar to teflon they were coated with, knowing it is a lubricant they assumed it allowed them to slip through body armor.
This is counter to logic as a rapidly expanding projectile will penetrate worse than any other round. The greater the surface area of resistance for a given foot pounds the better body armor would in fact work against it.
Well expanding ammo works to increase the the surface area facing resistance for a larger wound.
The media was just plain wrong. A round for both expansion and penetration can be designed, but it is not what a Black Talon does, or any civilian pistol ammo.
The incorrect logic however likely stems from the fact that ammo actualy designed to penetrate soft body armor is actualy coated in something, not to increase penetration which it does not effect, but to decrease barrel errosion on the gun since the ammo is likely made of a very hard material. The same round without the coating would perform just as well, it would just be rougher on the barrel. Black Talons however are NOT such ammo, being in fact the opposite.
The misconception stuck though, and they were in addition to thier other "evil" features, associated with being better for killing cops (because no criminals use body armor, and the 2nd Amendment doesn't exist precisely to be capable of resisting government equiped tyrant's who in modern times would be wearing body armor
) This may have actualy saved some officer's lives, as criminals sought one of the worst performers against soft body armor. So I would argue that taking Black Talons off the market actualy increased the danger officer's face as they will no longer have foolish criminals confident in a capability that does not exist. Instead criminals will use other ammo without incorrect assumptions about the capability of the ammo.
Black Talons are really little different than most other expanding ammunition, and since Black Talons by name are now a collector's item they are not worth spending the extra money on for actual use.
A sinister name, a dark color, and the use of relatively new materials in bullets for the time in the form of Teflon (at least to the general public) left them demonized. This has caused many people to believe they are more effective than they really are. Obviously as your post illustrates this trend still exists.
Now all of that said, I would like a commercial round that generates sharp treatment hardened edges that tissue cannot flow around without being knicked, and resists being peeled completely back. I think that will cause more bleeding for a given diameter wound, leading to slightly improved incapacitation. At a much higher cost per round I know a mechanicaly designed round could do exactly that. Having connected petals that only open up to 90 degrees and then are locked into place. Such rounds would however be cost prohibitive to produce or use.
However in light of previous issues, calling them Pink Bunnies might be appropriate.
Last edited:
i never understood how a subsonic bullet could defeat armor... they must be magic.seriously,buying black talons for sd is a waste of money.like others have said there are better designs available.i still use the black
+p+ rangers in my nines because ive burned through a case with no malfunctions.once their gone ill most likely try hst's.
+p+ rangers in my nines because ive burned through a case with no malfunctions.once their gone ill most likely try hst's.
Super Trucker
Member
I have a box and a half of 9mm and most of a box of .357mag in the safe still.
I like the Ranger T just the same.
I like the Ranger T just the same.
stevereno1
Member
try gunbroker.com They also were sold as "rangers" by wichester. I have some 147 gr. "rangers" and they are the real deal!
stevereno1
Member
Winchester stopped using the lubalox coating on all handgun ammo recently. They still use it on the .204 ruger hollowpoints though. The Ranger line is the same bullet as the talon, less the coating and the nickel cases.
Spyvie
Member
They seem to have plenty of these at a shop near me... 9mm are $23, .380 is $27, and there's some 9mm 124gr +P+ that I haven't tried because a box of 50 is $34.
I don't have any way to test them other than by feel, but the recoil and report feel about average to me.
I don't have any way to test them other than by feel, but the recoil and report feel about average to me.
byf43
Member
Black Talon in 9mm. . . I've got 5 un-opened boxes. (NFS!)
PMC "El-Dorado" was basically the same bullet, if memory serves me.
PMC "El-Dorado" was basically the same bullet, if memory serves me.
TDSUS
Member
Winchester pulled the original Black Talon after the media tossed a fit and congress actually started asking questions. The Black was Lubalox or Lubaloy designed to reduce friction and heat but someone got the bright idea it was teflon and made the bullet capable of slipping through body armour.
A couple years later Winchester came out with the SXT load. The joke at Winchester is that the SXT stands for Same Exact Thing.
The SXT is a good round.
A couple years after the SXT they introduced the T series - lower right corner of the end flap will bear a T - RA9T, RA45T - this is LEO ammo and quite frankly is very different than the original BT's and SXT.
The box itself is the same as all "Ranger" but the key is in the "T".
As for what LEO means in terms of ammunition - according to Winchester and Federal, it has to do with the inspection proceses and believe it or not - precision of manufacture.
LEO ammo is held to a "tighter" set of specifications that "commercial" rounds.
A couple years later Winchester came out with the SXT load. The joke at Winchester is that the SXT stands for Same Exact Thing.
The SXT is a good round.
A couple years after the SXT they introduced the T series - lower right corner of the end flap will bear a T - RA9T, RA45T - this is LEO ammo and quite frankly is very different than the original BT's and SXT.
The box itself is the same as all "Ranger" but the key is in the "T".
As for what LEO means in terms of ammunition - according to Winchester and Federal, it has to do with the inspection proceses and believe it or not - precision of manufacture.
LEO ammo is held to a "tighter" set of specifications that "commercial" rounds.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
