Blaring example of why you should carry....

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Bang!, Feb 24, 2018.

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  1. Bang!

    Bang! Member

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    ....time and the quality of the response.

    The time of response by armed police officer to the recent school shooting was less than ninety seconds. Every school I have first hand knowledge of has a School Resource Officer (SRO). The SRO is assigned to the school and is in the building from before school opens and until students leave at end of day. I even see them at after school events. The school in Florida had an SRO. The “quality” (trying not to say coward) of this SRO was to stay outside the building while the shooting was going on. This article says there were three more officers that also stayed outside the building while the shooting was going on. There is a monster inside the building murdering defenseless, unarmed school age children in their gun free zone and four armed officers are outside the building while it is going on.

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/27523/breaking-cnn-reports-four-broward-county-deputies-ben-shapiro?utm_medium=email&utm_content=022418-news&utm_campaign=position1

    The point I’m getting to is that we are each responsible for our own protection. The protection you need to provide for yourself, and if necessary those around you, has to be immediate. Be it run away or fight back. If you rely on someone else then you’re a ‘victim in waiting’.

    I’ve been reading the debates and arguments on this just like everyone else. It’s frustrating to watch this boil down to basically just two groups. Either the ‘victim in waiting’ group or the ‘fight back’ group. Of course we would all like to be in the ‘this stuff never happens’ group. Reality is that it does happen and will happen. No one from the FBI down to the SRO is responsible for, or apparently even capable of, your immediate protection.

    There are quite a few people here on THR that would give the 2nd Amendment away piece by piece or all at once. What is the way ahead you people envision? Take away all firearms in one fell swoop? Only from the law abiding of course. Those that would prey upon us would keep theirs. What then? The massacre continues unabated for how ever many decades it takes to police up the firearms? As in this previous episode where the shooter finally tires of massacring and then goes to McDonalds?

    How many of you pro 2nd Amendment folks have weakened your stance? Are ready to ‘give’ a little?

    How many of you still stand firm?

    Many see this recent tragedy as a reason to “take away the guns!” Which would be closing the barn doors after the horses have left. Guns are here to stay. We have some where between 300,000,000 to 600,000,000 guns on the street. No way to know exactly, really. They’re here to stay be it legally or on the black market. You’re not going to wish them away. Deal with it.

    Me? For me it couldn’t be made anymore plain, as it should be to anyone, IMHO, watching this debacle unfold and come out into the light. Your immediate protection is your responsibility. I’ll fight for my God given right to protect me and mine. I’ll give to the NRA, boycott Hertz Rental Car, and give nothing away on the 2nd.

    Police response time in my area can be 30 minutes, easily. Nights and weekends we have two deputies to patrol the whole county. How many more police officers would we need to present a deterrence to those that would do us harm? What response time would make it appear too risky for criminals to invade my home? There’s some mental gymnastics. But, since it’s estimated that over fifty percent of the homes in this county are armed, we only need two on nights and weekends. You don’t open a door around here uninvited.

    Some here say America is changing to the ‘victim in waiting’ culture. And give compelling arguments. I’m afraid they’re right. But not yet.

    Is your immediate protection your responsibility? Would you rather wait for someone else to show up? Or will you carry a firearm to protect you and those you care about?
     
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  2. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    We know that, but how do you convince the rest of the folks who do not?

    I have a nephew (on my wife's side, fortunately) who is a school teacher in Florida. Any attempt on my part to convince him that he needs to be in a position to defend his students falls on deaf ears. He wants somebody, anybody, to ensure that evil doesn't show up at his classroom door. He doesn't care if that is because of bullet proof glass, key cards, armored doors, metal detectors, armed guards, total gun confiscation, or any and all of the above. He wants some non-existent "right to safety", and even though he has more chance on seeing a unicorn he is adamant about this.

    He, and others like him, is not interested in hearing logical arguments, facts, statistics. He "feels" like he and his students have a "right" to be safe. Never mind that even if you could take away every gun on the planet that he could be killed by a plane crashing into his school or a gas line explosion.

    Somehow, someway, we have lost an entire generation who now think that subjective feelings trump reality.
     
  3. MidRoad
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    MidRoad Contributing Member

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    Well seems like you just outlined the biggest problem with people these days. No body wants to be accountable for their own actions . They want other people to do it for them, and they want it done right now. We live in a time where it is a "right" to not be inconvenienced. It's a time where fewer people can do things for themselves and count on others to do it for them. Everything is about right here right now and eliminating effort, and constantly being catered to.

    So yes to answer your question. It is your responsibility to protect yourself. You can't rely on others to do it for you and than be angry at them for failing to do so. So carry a gun,protect yourself. Don't rely on someone who is "supposed" to be running in there to protect you,even though they are ones who signed and vowed to run into danger for you .Dont loose YOUR life because they failed to do their part.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  4. George P

    George P member

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    As someone who taught for a few years in Florida, and at a prison school for a bot, I never worried about any danger, even from the elementary kids I had, many of whom had records for armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, even one third grader who had attempted murder charges. School shootings, while tragic, are RARE. More school-aged kids die from suicides, driving and texting and driving while drunk - where's the outrage? More black ghetto kids are killed on any given weekend in Chicago and no outrage even from Sharpton of Jackson? Why is that?

    Everyone says something needs to be done NOW - BAN the guns; yet no one wants to address the CAUSES, they only want to react to aftermath.
     
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  5. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    People posting on this forum most likely carry more often than a non-enthusiast.
    However, the topic of "Why you should carry" does have potential to make an impact, even on here.
    For example, its near certain that someone reading this is willing to disarm to see a ballgame, concert, (metal detectors) ... disarm for entertainment.
    Walking to & from the event back to their vehicle, unarmed, because entertainment.
     
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  6. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator In Memoriam

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    Guns,are inanimate object used by sick evil people to commit crimes.

    Murder is already banned, he'll it is even a commandment.

    Crank in the abject failure of society, community mental health, schools, sheriff, FBI, politicians and the misguided feel good silly people who want universal safe zones.

    Evil exists. Mental illness exists, unicorns do not exist.

    That is why we can't give up rights.
    In the end, only you can protect you and yours.
     
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  7. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    Since having my classroom shot up. I’ve severly limited going to places that are “gun free”.

    Ironically, right before this I was just starting to feel a little bit better about trying to go unarmed. Not because I like being told I can’t carry but because I didn’t want to feel dependent on carrying.

    So this has set me back a bit and I WILL NOT go to so called gun free zones unless I have no choice.
     
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  8. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator In Memoriam

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    HokiePHD

    And if your like me you go to gun free zones reluctantly, with your head on a swivel and your situational awareness turned up to ten.
    First sign of Mr Murphy and I'm on the way out.
     
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  9. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    First I was a gun enthusiast, then I was a cop for a couple years, then I was a teacher for almost 20 years, gun enthusiast whole time.
    Carry inside school was a felony, so I never carried; I disliked being disarmed for most of the day.
    Circumstances led me to a different job where carry is okay and I make up bigly for those near 20 years of absurd disarmament. ;)

    As far as avoiding gun free zones, my wife is on board and always has been which makes it easy; we have been married over 25 years, have driven on all vacations (take kids, dogs, guns) rather than fly.
    Last time I was on a plane was 1986, they measured the blade on my Spyderco and handed it back to me because it was a plain blade (serrated not allowed) three inches or less; I disliked flying then.

    If there is an event at my kids gun free (its a felony) school, I'll go unarmed.
    Kids wanted to go to Universal after they put up metal detectors, I took them.
    I will go to (disarm for) a "gun free" zone if / when I have too, but I don't like it.

    Disarm for a ballgame, concert, or other "entertainment" for myself... :rofl: Nope.
     
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  10. hdwhit

    hdwhit Member

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    Not really sure where you're going with this.

    The students in the high school aren't old enough to carry even if the school wasn't a gun free zone. The teachers also can't carry because the school is a gun free zone. The SRO was allowed to carry and he failed to act. You may want to carry everywhere you legally can, but I fail to see any way to draw a connection between a civilian lawfully carrying a concealed weapon and the events that transpired in Parkland.

    So, whatever lessons can be learned from Parkland, it doesn't strike me as a Glaring Example of the need for concealed carry.
     
  11. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    Here is a lesson.
    Aaron Feis a football coach and security guard lost his life while protecting others at Parkland. His only option for defense was to use his body as a shield.
    He is a hero and he is dead. Had he been armed, he and others may be alive today.
    If that isn't an example of the need for concealed carry I'd say you just don't want to see one.
     
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  12. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    Having been in a classroom as it was shot up. I can tell you , allowing faculty to carry IF THEY CHOOSE, gives others a chance.

    Had I been carrying I WOULD HAVE SHOT AND KILLED the gunman.

    What hurt the worst was some bleeding heart claiming that I was illegally carrying on campus the next semester. I’d love to find out for sure who it was as I’d love to ask them why they lied. As I suspect who it is, I suspect it was to discredit me and to push their anti 2nd Amendment agenda.

    As someone said on Greg Gutfields show. A gun is useless if someone isn’t using it. In the Florida case cops stood down. Not everyone is a coward like that. I’d bet that the choice who was killed would have been like me and not been afraid to act had he been armed.

    As For anyone else

    IF YOU HAVENT BEEN THERE YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOULL DO

    IF YOU HAVE

    YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOULL DO NEXT TIME UNTIL YOURE THERE.
     
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  13. Mauserguy

    Mauserguy Member

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    I don't know why people expect so much from government workers. Yeah, four police officers waited outside for their pensions to kick in. Why is that surprising? Yes, you CCWs out there should always carry where legal and practical. Nobody is going to save you but yourselves.
    Mauserguy
     
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  14. Bang!

    Bang! Member

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    Where was I going with it? It’s your responsibility to defend yourself. You can’t rely on someone else. Don’t know about you but I’m not getting any younger. Too old to take a beating and too slow to run away. 2nd Amendment is the equalizer we need to hang onto. Florida was a tragedy. How does this tragedy point to more gun control? They were defenseless and not defended by anyone. It would be a stupid conclusion to say everyone should be defenseless and will not be defended. Yes, sometimes stupid is the right word to use.

    Blaring, as in a loud obnoxious sound right in my face.
     
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  15. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    Maybe it’s time we start demanding the elimination of “gun free zones” as loudly as others are demanding gun control. Either that or more people willing to break the law and carry anyway. How much longer are we going to let the government give us a list of places we aren’t allowed to protect ourselves?

    Gun free zones need to go away, now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
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  16. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    My sister worked as a Registered Nurse at LA County/USC Medical Center.

    LA County Sheriff's department provided security for the facility (47 acres of floor space and hundreds of acres of parking space) and after a nurse got raped in the parking lot, deputies quietly suggested to the nurses to carry guns from parking lot to their lockers on the units, AGAINST HOSPITAL POLICY.

    After multiple shootings in the Emergency Room and doctors shot, body armor was provided for staff - http://articles.latimes.com/1993-02-10/news/mn-1336_1_health-facilities

    Even though my sister was an absolute "by the book" person, she worked in one of two ERs and she and her coworkers ultimately decided to carry guns in hand inside their lab coats from parking lots to unit lockers.

    She said when the guns are pulled and bullets start flying or confronted with a rapist, it comes down to you vs the shooter or the rapist. At that moment, no one else can help you and you either become a victim or choose to fight back.

    She has long since left LA and pursues a quiet family life running her own insurance agency but now shoots pistol matches and often outshoots most of the men she is competing with. Her choice of pistol, M&P40. She has had close calls when transients and meth heads snooped around her house peaking into the windows and trying to open doors (She lives where county sheriff response is slow). Her husband was in LE but frequently traveled out of town. She said had she not been armed and not trained, she would have been terrified but instead, she calmly waited with her pistol drawn and her back up guns at the ready. Now that he's retired, I built them two 9mm carbines for them to draw if things go bump in the night.
     
  17. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    As a teacher, I keep saying this, but I feel like people aren't getting it. Armed teachers will not happen. NO ONE in education wants it. Not administrators. Not teachers. Not students. Not even teachers who are gun owners and NRA members want it. The ONLY group calling for arming teachers is the NRA. Even if Congress and the President repealed the law that created gun free school zones, I would be surprised if more than a handful of school boards and superintendents allowed it.

    And let's look at all of the drawbacks and issues with arming teachers that would have to be addressed to make such a thing successful. Skip the training part for moment: most of us here can teach anyone how to shoot-that's the easy part. How many teachers are ready to kill one of their students, right now? Not many. How many have the psychological and emotional state of mind to do that and successfully deal with the added responsibility of knowing that, in addition to everything else they have to do, they now have to constantly be prepared to killed someone. I don't know a single teacher who signed up for that. You want to add to the teacher shortage? Ask them to train to kill and always carry a gun. Most people don't want to do that. NOW look at the training. How many teachers have time to go to the range even 8 hrs a month? Unless they're already gun enthusiasts (not just owners, enthusiasts-I know teachers who own guns and haven't fired them in years.), they're not going to have time to put in the time required to be competent with a firearm. And then there is the cost? Who is paying for all of this? Who is willing to pay more local taxes to buy guns, ammo, range time, training, psych evaluation and counseling for these armed teachers? Who is going to pay these teachers the additional "hazard duty pay" to compensate them for all of that training and counseling time? (I would be shocked if any teachers did this on a completely free/voluntary basis.)

    What's that you say? Use teachers who are veterans? Most veterans (myself included) were not in the combat arms. I have no special experience or training from my time in service that makes me anymore qualified to be armed at school that the 22 yr old girl in her first year of teaching in the classroom next to me (other than that I can safely handle a gun, and I can hit a human silhouette at 300 yrds-and I haven't done that in 20 years)

    So what are we going to end up with? Tired, overwork teachers with guns and not much more. My district is cutting over 30 teachers from the rolls at the end of this year. (They're also cutting school security staff.) They cut teaching positions every year, usually by not replacing retirees. I have 35 textbooks that are 15 years old for 120 students. I can't get a map of the United States for my wall unless I buy it myself. I had to buy my own DVD drive to show films in class. School districts across America suffer from a combination of poor leadership, and state legislatures and voters who don't put a priority on education. What makes any of you think that handing out guns to teachers would be any better or somehow different than any other government undertaking?

    Thanks for letting me vent.
     
  18. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    As a teacher, I gave this some thought, but the bottom line is I would eventually get caught and a.) it's a felony - 5 yrs in the slammer, and b.)I'd lose my job. Given the extreme rarity of violence in schools that would require a firearm, I felt it not worth the risk.
     
  19. Bang!

    Bang! Member

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    My wife is a school teacher. She would carry if legal. So would a number of her colleagues. Now you know of a teacher that would.

    And these teachers (two seconds on google):

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html

    A little searching and you’ll find more school districts in more states already have armed teachers. We’re not asking teachers to enter the trenches and shoot their students (little over the top dramatics). But let’s stop asking them to stand in front of the shooter and soak up bullets and die. Give them back a choice.

    The point is that everyone in the nation shouldn’t loose their right to self defense with firearms because of the failure of gun free zones. Gun free zones are a failure therefore we make the whole country a gun free zone. Where’s the logic in that?

    Not all veterans were door kickers but, a lot were.

    35 textbooks for 120 students? Fail.
     
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  20. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    It already happened.

    2/22/18 Los Angeles Times - As gun debate roils on, teachers in this Texas school are already armed - http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-school-armed-20180222-story.html

    At Argyle High School, there is a sign posted that states, "Please be aware that the staff at Argyle are armed and may use whatever force is necessary to protect our students."

    School board decided to allow staff to be armed after the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre in 2012.

    After the school shooting in Florida, more staff at Argyle High School volunteered to carry guns.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  21. Guitarmike

    Guitarmike Member

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    How many school shootings have happened in Texas since 2012?
     
  22. Hasaf

    Hasaf Member

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    This is the same decision that I, as a teacher made. I am aware of two teachers in my building who carry; but frankly, there appears to be a greater tolerance for women who carry illegally than for men. If our district allowed it I know more who would.

    I teach in Kansas. Kansas allows the districts to decide if teachers can carry. However, the insurance carrier in Kansas has said, "no." As such, no teachers carry legally. By comparison, Utah addressed the situation differently. Instead of the "district may allow" as seen in Kansas, Utah passed "district may not forbid." Teachers in Utah a required to keep their firearm concealed. Incredibly enough, this has not resulted in any great catastrophe.

    So, now you know another teacher who would carry if it were legal. However, I would attend a training course. There are several for teachers. That brings up a direction I would like to see the issue of teacher firearm training to go, real and appropriate firearm training for teachers. I am not asking for three days of, "don't shoot your students." I would like to see marksmanship coaching and training focused on shooting in chaotic situations.

    While I see it as essential that the training be available and affordable, I would like to see those teachers also trained to the basic EMT standard. Yes, this training would eat a better part of a summer; however, it would be a direction toward a teacher first responder certification.

    As you can see, I am not entirely in favor of Utah's "sure, you can carry a gun" policy. Then, I am not in favor of "no guns" either. I want to see training that is appropriate and affordable. I will tell you that my research has shown that there are teacher firearm courses available. The next step is to decide on a minimum level of training, insuring it is, as I have said several times, appropriate and affordable and to then allow those teachers to be armed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  23. GAF

    GAF Member

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    Are there examples of SRO`s in a school actually making a difference in a school shooting? It is just a question I don`t see answered here.
    I think it is high time we give teachers who want to be armed in school a chance to make a difference.
     
  24. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    DB Cooper I get your concerns. At the same time if you were in an active shooter situation and one of your students pointed a firearm at you and pulled the trigger that is a bit late to think that "If only I had a gun". It should always be your choice to carry or not. Personally I will defend myself and other innocent people if at all possible. Is it probable? Hopefully I never do fire a round in self defense. I have in two previous situations been able to use situational awareness and a proactive response to win the day without a shot being fired (brandishing being enough). Were I unarmed would I be here today? Hard to say.:scrutiny: My job requires me to go into schools and work some. Thankfully after school is closed usually. I still do not like it. When I have a choice I am armed. Hokie has it pretty well summed up as he has been there where most of us have not. You both make good points and I think that ending schools being gun free would go a long way to end those spots as killing fields. A few teachers and some random parents, workers, etc that MIGHT POSSIBLY be carrying is a better deterrent than a uniform at a door ever will be.
     
  25. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    In a round-about, indirect way, I think they have made a difference in prevention but I don't know of any SRO's who have gone in, guns blazing, to stop an in-progress active shooting. (But I don't know the details of every shooting, so again, inconclusive.)

    Our SRO's are in the school every day. A visible presence. The kids and teachers know them. They come into my class when I teach the Constitution and augment my lessons on the 4th amendment. Our district, and my principal, take the long view that building relationships with students will result in students coming forward with information that will about a classmate that will help prevent a shooting (or other event). And there is anecdotal supporting evidence. Every gun confiscated in my school last year was the result of a student who knew about the gun coming to a staff member. I think that's great, but I think it's silly to rely solely on relationships between kids and SROs and teachers to prevent then next shooting.

    While we're discussing SROs, Im a bit pissed about this SRO at Parkland. Our SROs are great Americans who are now painted with this broad bush of shame.
     
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