Blood lead levels
- Thread starter ggood
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More on the hazards of indoor ranges:
LEAD POISONING – It can happen to you!
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Heider/LeadHazards.htm
Lead Poisoning and the Shooter
http://dfuse.us/lead.html
Please note the man who died after exposure to indoor range air borne lead.
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/XIIIA5b.html
LEAD POISONING – It can happen to you!
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Heider/LeadHazards.htm
Lead Poisoning and the Shooter
http://dfuse.us/lead.html
Please note the man who died after exposure to indoor range air borne lead.
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/XIIIA5b.html
jcwit
member
Threads such as this do nothing to further the shooting sports or the reloading industry.
They only perpetuate the fear of lead way beyond reason. Even to the point of outlawing wheel weights in California.
I'm supposed to take as gospel the fear mongering of the AMA, EPA, OSHA let alone the CalOSHA, surely you jest.
Anyone here is in more danger driving to and from work! Now, how bout a smoke break!
My opinion and I'm sticking to it.
They only perpetuate the fear of lead way beyond reason. Even to the point of outlawing wheel weights in California.
I'm supposed to take as gospel the fear mongering of the AMA, EPA, OSHA let alone the CalOSHA, surely you jest.
Anyone here is in more danger driving to and from work! Now, how bout a smoke break!
My opinion and I'm sticking to it.
zxcvbob
Member
I'm not sure those are reputable sources anymore. And I have done a little homework on my own. Your kidneys will remove the lead from your blood.
The lead in your bones takes a lot longer to get rid of, and it will be replenishing the lead in your blood.
Vitamin C is a cheap natural chelating agent.
If you drink lots of milk, your bones will not absorb as much of the lead you are exposed to. (that's why welders drink so much milk, but I believe they are more concerned about zinc) I don't know if the calcium will displace the lead that's already there.
The main thing is to limit exposure, but if you do that your body can deal with the lead. It takes a while because of the lead in your bones.
jcwit
member
Guess what!!!! they do not regulate the airborne lead or any other lead at the range I'm a membor of. I think I know whereof I speak as I was on the board of directors for the last 10 years.
So I just might know what I'm talking about!
Regarding the availabity of lead wheel weights in California check out these links, better get 'em while you can.
http://www.leadfreewheels.org/
http://www.leadfreewheels.org/
http://www.changecalifornia.org/2009/05/leadwheelweights.html
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10023551-48.html
Might do some good to peruse this forum also for info and facts
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/
There you go.
snuffy
Member
Why was this thread started, why not just add to the sticky thread about "SO CALLED LEAD POISONING".
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307170
The government is trying everything to stop shooting and gun ownership in the U.S. Including causing fear among shooters about that evil lead in bullets and primers. If you buy into that hype, then you're assisting them in their task.
Anybody that spreads the junk science put out by government agencies is not helping shooters causes one bit.
Taken/copied from this thread;http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=637203
Concerns about lead poisoning are overblown.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307170
The government is trying everything to stop shooting and gun ownership in the U.S. Including causing fear among shooters about that evil lead in bullets and primers. If you buy into that hype, then you're assisting them in their task.
Anybody that spreads the junk science put out by government agencies is not helping shooters causes one bit.
Taken/copied from this thread;http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=637203
Concerns about lead poisoning are overblown.
jcwit
member
Amen, snuffy!
Tcruse
Member
I think that the lead levels vary greatly from range to range. I suspect that the newer ranges and ones recently remodeled are probably better than the others. I know of no way to tell for sure.
I think that we as shooters should start dealing with the problem before the government gives us no choice. The EPA is generally not very nice toward shooting.
I think that total jacket or plated bullets are certainly a good place to start. I think that some ammo companies have done good work in this area. One really good example is the cabelas/Blazer TNJ (nylon jacket) ammo. It is priced at about $12/50 as list price with street price of $10. As far as reloading, there are several brands of high quality plated bullets (some noted as heavy plated) that should help.
Shooting lead cast bullets seem to have many disadvantages with heavy metal exposure being only one of them. Maybe ranges should stop allowing them and forget the steel cased or bimetal restrictions.
I do not want all copper bullets or other very high cost solutions mandated by our government. I would like to keep the government regulations out of my life as much as possible.
I think that we as shooters should start dealing with the problem before the government gives us no choice. The EPA is generally not very nice toward shooting.
I think that total jacket or plated bullets are certainly a good place to start. I think that some ammo companies have done good work in this area. One really good example is the cabelas/Blazer TNJ (nylon jacket) ammo. It is priced at about $12/50 as list price with street price of $10. As far as reloading, there are several brands of high quality plated bullets (some noted as heavy plated) that should help.
Shooting lead cast bullets seem to have many disadvantages with heavy metal exposure being only one of them. Maybe ranges should stop allowing them and forget the steel cased or bimetal restrictions.
I do not want all copper bullets or other very high cost solutions mandated by our government. I would like to keep the government regulations out of my life as much as possible.
lizziedog1
Member
I have a friend here that has a bullet in his leg. He jokes that when he gets an MRI he can feel the bullet warming up.
There are others that are shot and doctors decide to leave the bullet in place because trying to get it out would cause more harm.
Why don't these people drop dead from lead poisoning? They have a chunk of lead in them, and yet seem to live fine.
There are others that are shot and doctors decide to leave the bullet in place because trying to get it out would cause more harm.
Why don't these people drop dead from lead poisoning? They have a chunk of lead in them, and yet seem to live fine.
ranger335v
Member
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- Dec 3, 2006
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- 3,797
Heavy metals don't go down significantly from your blood or body on their own; this is a fact and not internet hype, speculation, or conjecture. Human bodies are not geared to getting rid of heavy metals on their own...heavy metal poisoning is a chronic condition.
As several have stated above, a lot of us have been working with lead bullets and casting a very long time, shoot and tumble a lot of bullets, etc. and have no lead problem. The observtion above is part of why I suspect going to great lengths to protect the OP from the same activities is meaningless, doubt shooting activities had anything to do with it and doubt avoiding it will reduce the internal levels.
We can all believe that IF shooting/loading actually presented any serious potential for harm our power mad nanny state EPA would be all over us in an effort to put a total stop to it; there isn't any such risk and they haven't been able to manufactor any such evidence.
As a final thought, I'll mention that a lot of people have been walking around a long time with lead bullets or fragments lodged in their bodies with no harm.
As several have stated above, a lot of us have been working with lead bullets and casting a very long time, shoot and tumble a lot of bullets, etc. and have no lead problem. The observtion above is part of why I suspect going to great lengths to protect the OP from the same activities is meaningless, doubt shooting activities had anything to do with it and doubt avoiding it will reduce the internal levels.
We can all believe that IF shooting/loading actually presented any serious potential for harm our power mad nanny state EPA would be all over us in an effort to put a total stop to it; there isn't any such risk and they haven't been able to manufactor any such evidence.
As a final thought, I'll mention that a lot of people have been walking around a long time with lead bullets or fragments lodged in their bodies with no harm.
DickM
Member
I'll just add a little real-world data, which I posted some time ago in the sticky thread on the same subject.
A few years ago, when I was somewhat more active in Bullseye competition than I am now, between matches and practice sessions I was shooting in indoor ranges about 5 or 6 evenings a week. It goes without saying that the ventilation in those ranges ranged from bad to non-existent. (As an aside, I've also shot in the state-of-the-art S&W training ranges in Springfield, MA (not the public range, which is better) - the ventilation there is pretty bad also. I very rarely encounter an indoor range that has anything resembling adequate ventilation.
Anyway, one of the guys on my team happened to have his blood, which is known medically as "serum", lead concentration tested and it came back in the low 60s mcg/dl (micrograms per deciliter, the commonly used reporting units). Because of that I had mine tested and found I was in the mid-20s. That's compared to a desirable lead concentration for an adult of less than 10 mcg/dl. We both started wearing half-face respirators with the common pink P100 pancake filters. I also started being more careful about washing my hands after shooting and started wearing the respirator when I emptied my tumbler.
After one year on the respirator, still shooting as much, his concentration came down to the mid-20s and mine had decreased to around 12 mcg/dl. For unrelated reasons, he stopped shooting shortly after that. I continued to wear the respirator for another year, at which point my lead was down to 7.9 mcg/dl.
Conclusions? Contrary to misinformation posted elsewhere in this thread, simply reducing your exposure to lead will reduce serum lead concentrations, i.e., the body does depurate lead, albeit rather slowly. Also, whether it's from lead styphnate priming compound or the lead bullets, indoor ranges are a major source of lead exposure and wearing an inexpensive respirator can reduce exposure significantly. And, my moderately elevated blood pressure, a known effect of lead exposure, has returned to near-normal levels. I've continued to wear my respirator when I shoot indoors and, in fact, would no more think of not wearing it than I would of not wearing my eye and ear protection
A few years ago, when I was somewhat more active in Bullseye competition than I am now, between matches and practice sessions I was shooting in indoor ranges about 5 or 6 evenings a week. It goes without saying that the ventilation in those ranges ranged from bad to non-existent. (As an aside, I've also shot in the state-of-the-art S&W training ranges in Springfield, MA (not the public range, which is better) - the ventilation there is pretty bad also. I very rarely encounter an indoor range that has anything resembling adequate ventilation.
Anyway, one of the guys on my team happened to have his blood, which is known medically as "serum", lead concentration tested and it came back in the low 60s mcg/dl (micrograms per deciliter, the commonly used reporting units). Because of that I had mine tested and found I was in the mid-20s. That's compared to a desirable lead concentration for an adult of less than 10 mcg/dl. We both started wearing half-face respirators with the common pink P100 pancake filters. I also started being more careful about washing my hands after shooting and started wearing the respirator when I emptied my tumbler.
After one year on the respirator, still shooting as much, his concentration came down to the mid-20s and mine had decreased to around 12 mcg/dl. For unrelated reasons, he stopped shooting shortly after that. I continued to wear the respirator for another year, at which point my lead was down to 7.9 mcg/dl.
Conclusions? Contrary to misinformation posted elsewhere in this thread, simply reducing your exposure to lead will reduce serum lead concentrations, i.e., the body does depurate lead, albeit rather slowly. Also, whether it's from lead styphnate priming compound or the lead bullets, indoor ranges are a major source of lead exposure and wearing an inexpensive respirator can reduce exposure significantly. And, my moderately elevated blood pressure, a known effect of lead exposure, has returned to near-normal levels. I've continued to wear my respirator when I shoot indoors and, in fact, would no more think of not wearing it than I would of not wearing my eye and ear protection
Hammerdown77
Member
I'd be real curious to see someone get a blood test BEFORE they started reloading (with lead bullets), tumbling brass, and/or casting. Then have another one after a couple of years to compare it to.
After reloading for a year, and tumbling during that time, and of course doing a lot of shooting (some indoor, mostly out), I had a blood test. Mine was in the low 20's, and the doctor said that was high-ish, nothing to get overly concerned about, but to try and reduce exposure as much as possible. He was NOT AT ALL concerned about me shooting cast bullets. He asked "Do you chew on them while you're reloading? If not, don't worry about it." He was MORE CONCERNED with the dust from the tumbler, and making sure I adequately washed my hands/face/hair and clothes after an extended shooting session, especially after the indoor range. He said inhaling the smoke from firing and the dust from tumbling was FAR WORSE than just handling lead bullets.
I wish I would have had a test before I started reloading and shooting. Then I would have had a baseline to compare against. As it is now, I have no way of knowing if that increased lead level came from shooting/reloading, or from some other source like lead in dishes from CHINA, or from pipes in our house growing up, or whatever...
After reloading for a year, and tumbling during that time, and of course doing a lot of shooting (some indoor, mostly out), I had a blood test. Mine was in the low 20's, and the doctor said that was high-ish, nothing to get overly concerned about, but to try and reduce exposure as much as possible. He was NOT AT ALL concerned about me shooting cast bullets. He asked "Do you chew on them while you're reloading? If not, don't worry about it." He was MORE CONCERNED with the dust from the tumbler, and making sure I adequately washed my hands/face/hair and clothes after an extended shooting session, especially after the indoor range. He said inhaling the smoke from firing and the dust from tumbling was FAR WORSE than just handling lead bullets.
I wish I would have had a test before I started reloading and shooting. Then I would have had a baseline to compare against. As it is now, I have no way of knowing if that increased lead level came from shooting/reloading, or from some other source like lead in dishes from CHINA, or from pipes in our house growing up, or whatever...
zxcvbob
Member
The welders I knew in a previous life were worried about "metal fume fever" from welding galvanized steel or mild steel coated with zinc chromate. The calcium in the milk provides some protection. At least that's what they thought and I have no reason to doubt it.
That's not a problem because metallic lead is not very soluble nor reactive, and the bullet doesn't have much surface area. If you were to grind the lead into dust and inject it into someone, it would be toxic because of the huge surface area. The lungs are particularly good at absorbing lead if it's fine enough.
evan price
Member
I cast my own boolits by the thousand, smelt my own lead ingots from hand-sorted scrap or wheel weights, pick and sort wheel weights without gloves, gather and tumble every year tens of thousands of pieces of brass outdoors and indoors, shoot and reload my own ammo, and work on machinery with babbitt bearings. I hand-dig lead from the hillside berm to get scrap bullets to melt down into ingots.
I take no special precautions other than not eating or licking my fingers until the hands have been washed after handling lead-bearing products. No dust masks, no special ventilation, dump the tumbler inside while standing over it shaking the media out. Have on occaision had the black boogers and it has set off my asthma from the tumbler dust.
To get a 64 you have something else going on. I really doubt you play with as much lead and spent brass as I do....My lead level has been 3 for several years now. Doc says anything under 4 is normal.
I take no special precautions other than not eating or licking my fingers until the hands have been washed after handling lead-bearing products. No dust masks, no special ventilation, dump the tumbler inside while standing over it shaking the media out. Have on occaision had the black boogers and it has set off my asthma from the tumbler dust.
To get a 64 you have something else going on. I really doubt you play with as much lead and spent brass as I do....My lead level has been 3 for several years now. Doc says anything under 4 is normal.
I was in a similar situation as the OP, but my levels weren't quite as high.
I switched to shooting outdoors, ultrasonically cleaning brass (Santa brought me a cleaner anyway), and changing clothes, throwing them directly in the washing machine & showering after getting home, & wearing gloves when cleaning my guns. I also switched to plated bullets. About 6 months later, my BLL actually increased a tad.
Several months later, I had a 24hr urine collection test done, and it came back normal.
Though I'm still left wondering about the accuracy of the different tests, I do see BLL like I see cholesterol: 1) Some may (or may not) be predisposed to higher levels given any particular hobby/lifestyle, and 2) there's no need to panic at a high test, but there's enough evidence to suggest that high levels aren't good, and steps to keep it in check are prudent. To the conspiracist, I offer my best wishes, but prefer to not take such chances myself, especially when I can just take some simple precautions without affecting my shooting. IMHO, YMMV, etc, etc.
I switched to shooting outdoors, ultrasonically cleaning brass (Santa brought me a cleaner anyway), and changing clothes, throwing them directly in the washing machine & showering after getting home, & wearing gloves when cleaning my guns. I also switched to plated bullets. About 6 months later, my BLL actually increased a tad.
Several months later, I had a 24hr urine collection test done, and it came back normal.Though I'm still left wondering about the accuracy of the different tests, I do see BLL like I see cholesterol: 1) Some may (or may not) be predisposed to higher levels given any particular hobby/lifestyle, and 2) there's no need to panic at a high test, but there's enough evidence to suggest that high levels aren't good, and steps to keep it in check are prudent. To the conspiracist, I offer my best wishes, but prefer to not take such chances myself, especially when I can just take some simple precautions without affecting my shooting. IMHO, YMMV, etc, etc.
Many do die from lead
Just do a google search to find papers and information on lead toxicity on shooting victims. The medical literature has recognized that lead projectiles must be removed after a shooting. People died from the lead left in their bodies even though they would have recovered from the trauma of their shooting.
When your bud develops lead poisoning he may have a case for medical malpractice.
Lead poisoning after gunshot wound
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-31802000000300006
http://journals.lww.com/smajournalo...0/Lead_Poisoning_from_a_Gunshot_Wound.17.aspx
http://www.vahealth.org/leadsafe/documents/11062006/Lead_Newsletter_Vol_2_Issue_1.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0046817788803538
http://www.lead.org.au/fs/fst70.html
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/159/7/683.full
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1752-1947/1/171
http://www.jbjs.org/article.aspx?articleid=23226
http://www.orthosupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=2933
President Andrew Jackson suffered from lead poisoning due to the bullets in his body
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/282/6/569.full
jcwit
member
Well according to the above post I guess we should all give up the shooting sports and just roll over and die.
I think I'll go with evan prices experiences and my own. The medical community can come up with just about anything they wish at any one time.
Remember a few years ago eggs were hazardous to your health.
Last year it was salt.
And yet our life expectancy continues to lengthen.
I think I'll go with evan prices experiences and my own. The medical community can come up with just about anything they wish at any one time.
Remember a few years ago eggs were hazardous to your health.
Last year it was salt.
And yet our life expectancy continues to lengthen.
jcwit
member
Ok! Sounds like a plan to me.
I still contend the fear of lead is grossly overstated, and the same for mercury.
Big difference between lead poisoning from a retained lead bullet vs inhaled lead particles.
Having said that I got a baseline serum lead level test done last year and I came out slightly high. I shoot in an indoor range about 4 times a month, mainly .22LR and usually 200 rounds minimum.
While it is out of the reference range, I will be doing these tests every year.
Having said that I got a baseline serum lead level test done last year and I came out slightly high. I shoot in an indoor range about 4 times a month, mainly .22LR and usually 200 rounds minimum.
While it is out of the reference range, I will be doing these tests every year.
Coincidentally, I gave a talk to some radiographers yesterday and this was one of the slides:
That is a bullet shot at a downward trajectory through a man's thigh. It fractured the distal femur, passed through both joint surfaces and embedded in the tibial plateau such that the base of the bullet was exposed to synovial fluid in the knee joint.
Synovial fluid can dissolve lead and make it available in toxic levels. Hazards applicable to this case are:
* mechanical hazard (just like any other metallic foreign body)
* possible ferromagnetic hazard (it is not possible to exclude ferrous materials on these radiographs)
* plumbism (lead poisoning)
* sharps hazard (at retrieval). Whilst it could not be proved with 100% certainty that the round was jacketed, the reduced number of lead specks in the wound and the flattening of the projetile (compare the two views) indicates this is likely to be jacketed. And if some lead has come out of the round, there is likely to be a jacket edge, which could be sharp.
In other cases, there is an extra hazard which is possible if the projectile has access to significant blood vessels. It can embolise. This is more common in shotgun injuries, but there have been cases reported where handgun rounds and even rifle rounds have ended up in major arteries and embolised.
That is a bullet shot at a downward trajectory through a man's thigh. It fractured the distal femur, passed through both joint surfaces and embedded in the tibial plateau such that the base of the bullet was exposed to synovial fluid in the knee joint.
Synovial fluid can dissolve lead and make it available in toxic levels. Hazards applicable to this case are:
* mechanical hazard (just like any other metallic foreign body)
* possible ferromagnetic hazard (it is not possible to exclude ferrous materials on these radiographs)
* plumbism (lead poisoning)
* sharps hazard (at retrieval). Whilst it could not be proved with 100% certainty that the round was jacketed, the reduced number of lead specks in the wound and the flattening of the projetile (compare the two views) indicates this is likely to be jacketed. And if some lead has come out of the round, there is likely to be a jacket edge, which could be sharp.
In other cases, there is an extra hazard which is possible if the projectile has access to significant blood vessels. It can embolise. This is more common in shotgun injuries, but there have been cases reported where handgun rounds and even rifle rounds have ended up in major arteries and embolised.
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