Blown Primer, Gas In Eyes, Shredded Bolt Face

[Jessesky]

A new bolt head arrived in the mail, and before I install it and go to the range, I’d like to figure out why the previous one detonated.

For those of you who don’t know, the rifle in question is a Turkish Forestry Carbine. Turkish forestry carbines were made by the Turks in the late 40s from captured and purchased WWI French berthiers. They were shortened, but the actions and barrels are the same.

Most if not all were converted to Balle N, a higher pressure 8mm lebel and used a slightly wider neck diameter. It was made for the hotchkiss machine gun. The former was Balle D. Similar to the difference between 8mmJ, and 8mmJS.

The peculiar thing is this rifle is marked Balle N.

As you can see below, the bolt face was torn up, lots of gas escaped (good thing I was wearing glasses), the primer was blown out, and the extractor blew off (I snapped it back in). I can’t figure out what caused it. (I was Shooting PPU 8mm)

 

[saiga308]

a higher pressure 8mm lebel and used a slightly wider neck diameter.

what do u mean by that what was the powder charge?

I was Shooting PPU 8mm

oh i see

 

[saiga308]

Made using topnotch materials and manufactured to exacting standards and tight tolerances, this is HOT ammo for hunting and plinking, made affordable! From Prvi Partizan, the top Serbian munitions manufacturer.

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/ppu-8x50r-lebel-fmj-bt-200-grain-20-rounds?a=1584484

 

[saiga308]

video time 4:40 yikes!! 45.2 grains of powder video time 8:05 loaded high to the neck in the case

ring around the primmer? looks like a large flash hole to me

 

[saiga308]

note the lower charge on this load?

Nosler 200 gr. bullet ... 44.0 grs. of IMR 3031 ... 2350 fps ... 2.967 OL

Sierra 220 gr. bullet ... 44.0 grs. of IMR 3031 ... 2250 fps ... 2.967 OL
Sierra 220 gr. bullet ... 45.0 grs. of IMR 4895 ... 2250 fps. ... 2.967 OL
Hornady 220 gr. bullet ... 44.0 grs. of IMR 3031 ... 2230 fps ... 3.020 OL
Hornady 220 gr. bullet ... 45.0 grs. of IMR 4895 ... 2250 fps ... 3.020 OL
Sierra 175 gr. bullet ... 44.0 grs. of IMR 3031 ... 2350 fps ... 2.967 OL
Nosler 180 gr. bullet ... 44.0 grs. of IMR 3031 ... 2350 fps ... 2.967 OL

 

[saiga308]

video time 1:57

the ppu brass with the ring could be spiking the primmer pressures

 

[climbnjump]

Ok, I know nothing about the firearm in question, but if the fired shell casing in your second picture is the one from the incident, then I'd suggest that you have a different chamber than you think you have. The case looks positively blown out. But I guess if you've successfully fired this thing before, you would already know one way or the other.

 

[<*(((><]

I would agree with @climbnjump it would be curiously to measure the fired case and see what the dimensions are.

 

[saiga308]

{Cartridge : 8 x 50 R Mannlicher M93 (DWM358)
Bullet : .323, 200, Speer SP 2285
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.000 inch or 76.20 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 45052 psi, or 310 MPa

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

5 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
IMR 4350 105.5 52.6 3.41 756 89.2 311 58 1.307 ! Near Maximum ! [Note 105.5% full = compressed load]
Winchester 760 96.5 53.1 3.44 2540 93.3 45052 8960 1.298 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 99.1 54.9 3.56 2547 94.3 45052 9092 1.295 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 101.5 52.5 3.40 2540 94.6 45052 8915 1.291 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700 95.0 51.0 3.31 2401 91.9 45052 7594 1.338 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 111.2 55.4 3.59 2545 95.0 45052 8984 1.301 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 92.1 51.0 3.31 2513 94.2 45052 8673 1.316 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 98.8 52.5 3.40 2548 96.4 45052 8966 1.306 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 93.0 49.4 3.20 2493 96.0 45052 8356 1.325 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 97.6 50.8 3.29 2537 97.8 45052 8602 1.300 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 93.1 47.7 3.09 2493 97.8 45052 8024 1.302 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 93.1 46.9 3.04 2464 97.2 45052 7894 1.315 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 92.2 46.4 3.01 2519 99.2 45052 8049 1.292 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 91.2 47.5 3.08 2505 97.4 45052 8298 1.320 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 93.8 46.1 2.99 2459 97.5 45052 7764 1.321 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 92.1 48.4 3.14 2441 97.9 45052 7782 1.330 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 86.7 49.2 3.19 2516 98.9 45052 8337 1.318 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 84.1 47.1 3.05 2514 99.5 45052 8024 1.310 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 84.5 46.1 2.99 2477 99.0 45052 7830 1.321 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 93.5 47.1 3.05 2484 99.6 45052 7719 1.308 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 84.4 44.1 2.86 2468 99.0 45052 7700 1.323 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 99.6 48.9 3.17 2467 99.5 45052 7702 1.324 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 84.6 43.4 2.81 2419 99.3 45052 7194 1.330 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 88.9 47.6 3.09 2497 99.8 45052 7866 1.333 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 81.3 45.3 2.94 2444 99.4 45052 7423 1.342 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 82.8 46.2 2.99 2456 99.5 45052 7570 1.347 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 92.2 46.1 2.99 2450 100.0 45052 7275 1.326 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 91.0 44.3 2.87 2513 100.0 45052 7551 1.314 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 84.0 42.4 2.75 2462 100.0 45052 7218 1.318 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 83.9 44.5 2.88 2436 100.0 45052 7084 1.326 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 96.8 45.7 2.96 2459 100.0 45052 7100 1.331 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 89.2 42.5 2.75 2394 100.0 45052 6483 1.333 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 83.0 41.8 2.71 2415 100.0 45052 6684 1.350 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x 81.2 39.8 2.58 2420 100.0 45052 6662 1.343 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 83.7 40.7 2.64 2378 100.0 45052 6322 1.344 ! Near Maximum !}

 

[someguy2800]

{Cartridge : 8 x 50 R Mannlicher M93 (DWM358)
Bullet : .323, 200, Speer SP 2285
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.000 inch or 76.20 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 45052 psi, or 310 MPa

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

5 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
IMR 4350 105.5 52.6 3.41 756 89.2 311 58 1.307 ! Near Maximum ! [Note 105.5% full = compressed load]
Winchester 760 96.5 53.1 3.44 2540 93.3 45052 8960 1.298 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 99.1 54.9 3.56 2547 94.3 45052 9092 1.295 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 101.5 52.5 3.40 2540 94.6 45052 8915 1.291 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700 95.0 51.0 3.31 2401 91.9 45052 7594 1.338 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 111.2 55.4 3.59 2545 95.0 45052 8984 1.301 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 92.1 51.0 3.31 2513 94.2 45052 8673 1.316 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 98.8 52.5 3.40 2548 96.4 45052 8966 1.306 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 93.0 49.4 3.20 2493 96.0 45052 8356 1.325 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 97.6 50.8 3.29 2537 97.8 45052 8602 1.300 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 93.1 47.7 3.09 2493 97.8 45052 8024 1.302 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 93.1 46.9 3.04 2464 97.2 45052 7894 1.315 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 92.2 46.4 3.01 2519 99.2 45052 8049 1.292 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 91.2 47.5 3.08 2505 97.4 45052 8298 1.320 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 93.8 46.1 2.99 2459 97.5 45052 7764 1.321 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 92.1 48.4 3.14 2441 97.9 45052 7782 1.330 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 86.7 49.2 3.19 2516 98.9 45052 8337 1.318 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 84.1 47.1 3.05 2514 99.5 45052 8024 1.310 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 84.5 46.1 2.99 2477 99.0 45052 7830 1.321 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 93.5 47.1 3.05 2484 99.6 45052 7719 1.308 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 84.4 44.1 2.86 2468 99.0 45052 7700 1.323 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 99.6 48.9 3.17 2467 99.5 45052 7702 1.324 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 84.6 43.4 2.81 2419 99.3 45052 7194 1.330 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 88.9 47.6 3.09 2497 99.8 45052 7866 1.333 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 81.3 45.3 2.94 2444 99.4 45052 7423 1.342 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 82.8 46.2 2.99 2456 99.5 45052 7570 1.347 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 92.2 46.1 2.99 2450 100.0 45052 7275 1.326 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 91.0 44.3 2.87 2513 100.0 45052 7551 1.314 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 84.0 42.4 2.75 2462 100.0 45052 7218 1.318 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 83.9 44.5 2.88 2436 100.0 45052 7084 1.326 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 96.8 45.7 2.96 2459 100.0 45052 7100 1.331 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 89.2 42.5 2.75 2394 100.0 45052 6483 1.333 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 83.0 41.8 2.71 2415 100.0 45052 6684 1.350 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x 81.2 39.8 2.58 2420 100.0 45052 6662 1.343 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 83.7 40.7 2.64 2378 100.0 45052 6322 1.344 ! Near Maximum !}

Please stop, this is not helpful

 

[someguy2800]

Ok, I know nothing about the firearm in question, but if the fired shell casing in your second picture is the one from the incident, then I'd suggest that you have a different chamber than you think you have. The case looks positively blown out. But I guess if you've successfully fired this thing before, you would already know one way or the other.

I concure, whatever ammo you have does not fit that chamber. A chamber cast is in order.

 

[saiga308]

whoa! check this guy shooting one the bolt was sticking high pressure signs was he using PPU ammo to?
video time 2:40

 

[Jessesky]

Ok, I know nothing about the firearm in question, but if the fired shell casing in your second picture is the one from the incident, then I'd suggest that you have a different chamber than you think you have. The case looks positively blown out. But I guess if you've successfully fired this thing before, you would already know one way or the other.

It absolutely looks blown out, but I’d suspect it to be from loose chambers similar to how many 303 Enfields are chambered (which can be the issue).

I will do a chamber casting but I can’t imagine it being in any other chambering. The gun is not sporterized, and the Turks adopted this rifle specifically to fire 8mm lebel. There are none of these factory manufactured in any other cartridge.

 

[saiga308]

interesting the original ammo case had a ring around the primmer btw

 

[shooter1niner]

What is your history with this piece? I'm thinking a chamber cast would tell a lot about what you have there. The fired brass looks strange, like something not right with the chamber... I would not shoot it until you figure out what's up. You were lucky once, don't push it.

 

[frankmako]

you need to do a chamber cast to see what you realy have. i would not shoot the rifle until you do a chamber cast.

 

[saiga308]

What is your history with this piece? I'm thinking a chamber cast would tell a lot about what you have there. The fired brass looks strange, like something not right with the chamber... I would not shoot it until you figure out what's up. You were lucky once, don't push it.

yeah looks swollen in the rear of the brass thus chamber is wide

 

[Jessesky]

Placed an order for some Cerrosafe. Will report back

 

[Jim Watson]

Agree with the "roomy chamber for trench mud" theory.

The groove around the primer is to capture the points of the Balle D spitzer bullets in the tubular magazine of the original Lebel rifle and avoid gang fires.

 

[DocRock]

If the bolt head let go, that would have allowed expansion at the case head consistent with what we are seeing. Capacious chamber, hot load, blown bolt head. Makes sense to me. Chamber cast won't do you any harm and you may find something out. I'm still trying to get my head around the Turks having such a thing as a "Forestry Carbine".

 

[someguy2800]

If the bolt head let go, that would have allowed expansion at the case head consistent with what we are seeing. Capacious chamber, hot load, blown bolt head. Makes sense to me. Chamber cast won't do you any harm and you may find something out. I'm still trying to get my head around the Turks having such a thing as a "Forestry Carbine".

The bolt lugs did not break, it just blew off the outer "lip" of the bolt face. The only way for the case to expand like that and blow the shoulder forward with intact bolt lugs is if the head space is extremely excessive, the chamber is massively oversize, or the wrong ammo was used.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Excessive headspace, rifle is junk, hang it on the wall and move on.

 

[climbnjump]

I'm still trying to get my head around the Turks having such a thing as a "Forestry Carbine".

Yeah, I had to go looking for the "why" also. The following link seems to explain it:

https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=3644.0

For those not wanting to click on links, here is part of the story:

The Turkish forests are the source of Circassian Walnut, a local variant of the English Walnut (Juglans regia) that is highly prized for rifle stocks, among other things. Apparently poaching of trees was an issue but the Turks didn't want to arm their foresters with Mausers chambered the standard military cartridge of the era, 7.92x57mm, since that was widely available. Rather, they wanted to use these three shot carbines firing an odd cartridge only available from military stores in small quantities, such that if these were captured by poachers they would be of little use to them.​

 

[Jim Watson]

The Barney Fife method of gun control, eh?

 

[Nature Boy]

I think what this rifle needs is a respectful retirement