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Boberg XR9-S vs Kahr PM9 cronagraph results.

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by LightningMan, Sep 30, 2012.

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  1. outerlimit

    outerlimit Member

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    I have followed the Boberg for awhile now and expected a much larger difference in velocity. I'll keep my Kahrs.

    Boberg is a very nice gun, but just doesn't seen worth the 10 to 30fps tradeoff, you just don't have that piece of mind thinking of bullet separation. It's enough hoping the next bullet chambers and fires.

    I understand the Boberg comes with 7rd mags, is this correct? Maybe Boberg could eventually offer an extended one. Or does the Boberg have a heel release I forget? That offers advantages and disadvantages IMO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  2. LightningMan

    LightningMan Member

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    outerlimit, Yes they come with 7rd mags. BTW I would agree with; is the velocity difference worth it, and it's probably not. I would say the original increase in velocity is based on the longer barreled version of the XR-9, which I believe was said to be 100 fps faster than similar sized pistols. I agree about your other point about bullet seperation, this is an issue with ammunition, as most manufacturers worry about setback, but probably don't consider seperation could even happen. I know while testing the GoldDots I had a few come apart on me, so I too would be concerned about what ammo to use for carry. My best advise to anyone wanting to use the XR9-S for CCW would be test your ammunition, and it may be worth while (if you reload) to put a little extra crimp on your factory carry ammo and function test it again. As of yet, other than reloaded plated ammo, I have not had bullet seperation with any lead or jacketed reloads. LM
     
  3. alienbogey

    alienbogey Member

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    Just to ballpark the muzzle energy difference, I took the average 50fps increase in muzzle velocity of the Boberg per the OP, assumed a 124 grain bullet, which is common for 9mm. Then I saw that the Kahr might average around 900fps in his chart, so I assumed 950 for the Boberg.

    900 fps for 124 grain bullet ==> 223 ft# muzzle energy Kahr

    950 fps for 124 grain bullet ==> 248 ft# muzzle energy Boberg

    So, continuing to approximate, the XR-9S offers about 11% additional muzzle energy for a given ammunition versus the tested Kahr.

    Whether that additional energy is worth it to you when considering the relative advantages and disadvantages of each is up to you.

    I have a Boberg, and I've never fired a Kahr, but I've never had ammo separation issued with factory, and once I tightened the crimp on my reloads I've had no further problems.

    Another Boberg advantage is that I perceive much lower than expected recoil for a 9mmm that size. It is much more pleasant to shoot than my Ruger LCP .380, for example.
     
  4. LightningMan

    LightningMan Member

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    alienbogey quote; I have a Boberg, and I've never fired a Kahr, but I've never had ammo separation issued with factory, and once I tightened the crimp on my reloads I've had no further problems.
    While I see you haven't had this happen on factory ammo, I did, and couldn't believe it. FWIW, One test anyone can try to make sure their reloads are not going to have seperation is to first of all, use a set of calipers and check the OAL of rounds to be used. Then load and fire the first round, then instead of firing the next, remove the mag, and eject the chambered round, then check to see if that round is any longer than before. If so, your crimp is not holding the bullet secure enough, and after adjusting the crimp, repeat this process till it doesn't get longer. I noticed this problem on some of my first reloads I used in my XR9-S. LM
     
  5. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    I just can not see relying on a pistol for self defense, that requires such an effort on the ammunition.
     
  6. Billy Shears

    Billy Shears Member

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    The XR9-L, which will have the longer barrel and slide, should cure that problem I hope. The current version, which has a shorter barrel and slide than the original design, opens very abruptly thanks to the abbreviated slide having less inertia. It's not the only subcompact auto firing a full power cartridge with reliability issues. Not by a long shot.
     
  7. outerlimit

    outerlimit Member

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    I haven't chrono'd any ammo out of a micro Kahr in many years, but I seem to recall the 124gr. ammo traveling at a speed of more like 1030fps-1080fps, not 900fps.

    It usually travels out of service sized pistols at 1160-1250fps.

    This is with +P or NATO ammo though. Next time I am at the range, hopefully soon, I would like to chronograph some out of a Kahr again.

    That 900fps number seems weak even for standard pressure 124gr. 9x19mm
     
  8. LightningMan

    LightningMan Member

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    outerlimit those first set of test results were my own reloaded ammunition, they were ment to be a target loads. Thats why the such lower velocity readings. As you can see by the gold dot readings, they are much hotter. LM
     
  9. cpileri

    cpileri Member

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    the point of the Boberg? barrel elngth or overall package size?

    Isnt the whole point of the Boberg that it is a "small subcompact"; even smaller than the Glock 26?

    Obviously comparing one barrel length to another for velocity is not going to give suprising results, for the most part.

    But the purpose of the Boberg is that it gives a longer (not long, longER) barrel in a shorter pistol.

    So to be fair, wouldnt it be preferable to compare the Boberg -S to a smiliarly small pistol, regardless of barrel length? or maybe to the closest in size up and down: example compare the Boberg -S to the glock 26 and to the Ruger LC9.

    One would then be comparing velocity-per-package-size. If that's what one is looking for.

    Now, if they werent so darn expensive.

    C-
     
  10. IndyBanjo

    IndyBanjo Member

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    Boberg XR-9 unreliable? Not in my experience with well over 1,000 rounds through mine. It simply has a more limited range of ammo you can use -- but if you stick with recommended ammo it is dead reliable. Another factor not discussed -- ignoring size and barrel length and purely measurable criteria -- what I like about the XR-9 is that it has minimal muzzle flip even with the +P (I use Winchester 124 grain PDX1 +P). This is because the "activity" occurs farther back into your hand. I had a DB9 and it really was horrible to shoot, I shot a Kahr and it is pretty bad although it's weight helps. But the Boberg shoots like a dream -- fast followup shots are easy, and it carries 7+1 which is one better than most of the mouse guns. Also, although the size difference seems little -- in practice I fine the Boberg more easily concealable in a PDA style case made for the small .380 pistols. I don't think the fps is the best reason to carry the Boberg, it is how well it shoots. You have to go to more medium framed conventional guns to reduce muzzle flip that much. And that may be an individual thing. I have very small hands and I am small in general. Some people like that little DB9 and I flat out hated it -- probably could not hit a barn wall from inside the barn. I have gotten almost as good with the Boberg as with a compact Glock G27 at 15 or less yards.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  11. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    Humm, almost as good as a g27. Maybe its a good thing your glock is not a 9mm version. Same barrel lenght and your glock is in 40 cal. with more recoil?? And your almost as good!! Atleast with my kahrs, no, any of my centerfire firearms, they will cycle anything I feed them. Some of us also feel the recoil is not better or worse as long as you compare pistols in the same weight class. Concedering the boberg as as heavy as a cw9 or sheild or nano that sorta is not a fair comparison to the cm/pm kahrs , DB9, kt or others that simply are smaller and lighter. Personaly for me if the db9 is completely reliable or should i say as reliable as a boberg i have no problem with one as a cc pistol. When weight is under 11oz the darn thing should have a heavier amount of recoil. What did you expect fro yours. I look at a guy that buys a boberg like a guys tha would buy a wilson 1911 . Is it really better than than a glock or m&p or even a springfield 1911 or ruger 1911 or a les baer. Just different and costlier. Just another option for a few.

    Anyhow you like your boberg, great!!
     
  12. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    I have handled one and shot it. I look at them like a wilson 1911. Kinda cool i guess, just dose nothing better than some pistol that cost way less money.
     
  13. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    delete..
     
  14. Rembrandt

    Rembrandt Member

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    Had mine for about a month....still in awe at the fit, finish, and quality. Been using the recommended ammo list with flawless results. Thanks Lightningman for the detailed chrono testing, have enjoyed reading this thread very much.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. HankB

    HankB Member

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    Folks who think ammo separations with some brands of ammo are unique to the Boberg haven't shot scandium .357s very much. ;)

    5% velocity gain from the same size package with the same ammo may not be hugely significant, but it's better than a 5% loss.

    The Boberg is rated for +P, right? Not all pocket 9s are. If comparing it, head-to-head, with a similar sized pistol, I think it's fine to use the best ammo each pistol is rated for.

    If the Boberg actually works, that puts it miles ahead of the Kahr P9 (or is it POS9?) that both Kahr and I struggled - unsuccessfully - to get working.

    I think Arne has produced an innovative pistol, and I wish him well.
     
  16. kokapelli

    kokapelli Member

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    Thanks lightningman, very informative.

    I have been watching threads on this pistol and after seeing your tests see no reason to replace my flawless PM9 with a marginally more effective pistol that still needs to be proven.
     
  17. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    hankb kahr is +P rated. My cw9 came from a guy that could not get it to run too. Great pistol for me. So good infact I bought a cm9 to go with it. To each there own. also had a pf-9 thats was reliable as anyone could ask for. Just not fun to shot.
     
  18. wow6599

    wow6599 Member

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    Not sure about the P9 (or POS9), but my PM9 has been outstanding, and for nearly half the price of the Boberg. YMMV.
     
  19. kokapelli

    kokapelli Member

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    Yes and my K9 is +P+ rated.
     
  20. Highland Ranger

    Highland Ranger Member

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    Isnt the Boberg now +P+ rated?

    From what I read of the marketing, I think the statement is more power from a smaller gun.

    So a practical comparison would be max load for each respective gun because that'd be what you'd carry.
     
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