Bolt Action vs AR Accuracy

[Txhillbilly]

I have a Savage 12 FLVSS and a RRA 20" Varminter AR 15.They shoot pretty close to the same,it all depends on the type of bullets your shooting.
I handload all of my ammo to each gun I own,and there really isn't much difference between the groups of the same weights/types of bullets between these 2 rifles. They both will shoot excellent groups with most bullets.

 

[basicblur]

You won't see AR's at a bench rest competition.

I dunno-my relative has one that has 10 or 15 lbs of lead in it-I assume he's using it for benchrest-I'd hate to have to shoot that thing for anything other than benchrest?

 

[Tirod]

Most of the components of a rifle can be made for either to the same level of precision, if anything, identically. Ammo is obvious, if both are 5.56, it's interchangeable. What tweaks either barrel might have with leade or chambering, nonetheless, could be identical using the same machining, twist, reamer, etc.

Deactivate the gas, single load them, and I doubt you could get enough of them built and shot to prove a point. The differences would be so miniscule I doubt it could be recorded and expressed as a number.

What does come up is that an actively cycling action does introduce some factors that add to the overall diameter of dispersion, and so far, it doesn't seem anyone has mentioned them - just the exterior differences that can be easily made the same.

Does tapping the gas at the block have negative affects in muzzle vibration as the bullet exits, and will the chambering of ammuniton create variances in bullet shape, setback, or move the center of the bullet nose off axis? There's where most of the difference lies.

Single load the ammo, you remove all that - which is exactly what some precision shooters do.

Science it down to nearly identical benchrest rigs, then all that can be left is how the ammo gets banged up chambering that affects accuracy. Moot point, self loading actions are preferred for repeated firing, and that's likely against live targets, where 2MOA is effective and all that's needed.

 

[Art Eatman]

From what I've seen of ARs over the last 35 or so years, a basic version, "plain vanilla", is about a two MOA shooter. However, my 9.5-pound Bushie Match Target was definitely a half-MOA performer. I played pawnbroker for a guy; bought it at $500 and later sold it for $700. (Some ten years ago.)

I gave $400 for a good used Ruger 77 Mk II in .223. It was 1/2-MOA from the git-go.

Most bolt-actions, today, will come close to one MOA out of the box. Seems to me it takes a higher-end AR to do that.

 

[PreMod70]

Study the Tubb rifle, he has the barrel, action, rear stock mated together as a solid unit unlike the AR that is two units haphazardly mated together with the lower unit containing the buffer/rear stock that reponses to the bolts movements with a variety of vibrations. Build a AR with the upper containing the buffer/rear stock and then mate the lower trigger/mag assembly similar to the Tubb, then you see consistent accuracy.

 

[bgr2014]

AR Type Accuracy

I own a Rem. R25 in 308 (built by DPMS) after I got the burrs around the gas port in the rifling lapped out using the Tubbs fire lapping bullets #4 & #5 only. With 165gr. Noz.BT it shoots a clover leaf hole with no center. Using T's Guns and Ammo Manuf. shells. However I have Bolt guns that will do same thing or better. The hole in the rifling (gas port) I'm not fond of but, it shoots great, after installing a JP single stage trigger.

 

[Slamfire]

Study the Tubb rifle, he has the barrel, action, rear stock mated together as a solid unit unlike the AR that is two units haphazardly mated together with the lower unit containing the buffer/rear stock that reponses to the bolts movements with a variety of vibrations. Build a AR with the upper containing the buffer/rear stock and then mate the lower trigger/mag assembly similar to the Tubb, then you see consistent accuracy

Tubb won the National Highpower Championships with a 6.5 caliber AR action. I think it was 6.5. I think it was that year he had so many alibi's that the alibi rules were changed. That rifle was not reliable in feed or extraction, but the modularity of the rifle set David Tubb on the path to his Tubb rifle.

You can see the parentage, a box magazine, multi lug bolt. Tubb made his rifle a manual action and installed the Anschutz trigger.

A bud of mine shot this 100 yard 20 round slowfire group, prone with a sling and iron sights, with his 6X Tubb rifle. He won the match, might have been a reduced course State Championship.

 

[EarlyStarts]

Generally speaking what kind of difference in accuracy is there (or is there one?) between these two platforms??

I am more accurate with an AR platform than the bolt when I fire from positions at a rate of a well aimed shot every 3 or 4 seconds. The bolt forces me to break my natural point of aim so I have to reset. If I shoot a group of 10 rounds in 50 seconds with a mag change, the semi-auto group will be better most every time.

I do know folks who can run their bolt faster than I can run my semi-auto though so I guess it depends on how much you want to practice.

 

[PreMod70]

Tubb won the National Highpower Championships with a 6.5 caliber AR action. I think it was 6.5. I think it was that year he had so many alibi's that the alibi rules were changed. That rifle was not reliable in feed or extraction, but the modularity of the rifle set David Tubb on the path to his Tubb rifle.

You can see the parentage, a box magazine, multi lug bolt. Tubb made his rifle a manual action and installed the Anschutz trigger.

A bud of mine shot this 100 yard 20 round slowfire group, prone with a sling and iron sights, with his 6X Tubb rifle. He won the match, might have been a reduced course State Championship.

Tubb took the easy path but the better path has yet to be discovered, that will be when the buffer/buttstock is mated to the upper AR unit.

 

[Sky]

http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_Varminter.htm

Dirty old cheap, held to gether by a couple of pins, AR out of the box shooting clover leafs at 100 yards; factory ammo.

 

[cacoltguy]

100 yard groups only tell so much. The differences become more apparent at 600 yards and up. Matt Kiline putting ten rounds into 2.8 inches at 1000 yards, Tom Sarver putting 5 shots into a 1.4 inch group at 1000 yards. Those feats just aren't possible with an AR type platform for a number of reasons. For many practical shooting exercises at more reasonable distances, human error often trumps the mechanical differences of an AR vs. Bolt action platform. Nevertheless, I just think the physics and engineering of Bolt guns gives them a raw advantage in the accuracy department.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive 4 ars that shoot well under moa at a 100 yards. One does 1/2 inch at a 100 for 5 shots so there surely capable of accuracy. I think that maybe a bolt has slight edge if your buying a varmit or target bolt gun but to be honest ive had better luck with skinny barreled ars then i have with skinny barreled bolt guns

 

[68wj]

For many practical shooting exercises at more reasonable distances, human error often trumps the mechanical differences of an AR vs. Bolt action platform. Nevertheless, I just think the physics and engineering of Bolt guns gives them a raw advantage in the accuracy department.

I think this have been said a number of times in this thread already, but maybe never so concisely. Well put.

It is not that ARs, or semi-autos in general, are not accurate. It is that bolts are capable of more precise shooting when you really push the gun and the shooter to extremes.

 

[Coal Dragger]

To make a generalization I would postulate that given equal quality of parts, and workmanship, a bolt action will have an advantage over an AR in accuracy.

 

[Eb1]

My AR-15 was the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. With A2 sights I could shoot dime size groups of 30 @ 100 yards. Nothing I own bolt, lever or auto comes close to that.

Well my Marlin Model 60 can shoot a full tube @ 50 yards into a little over a nickle size group.

I would have to say that nothing in firearms is a definite or can be passed on as law except for a guided artillery round out of a rifled barrel.

There are no exacts in this hobby. It is a toss up, and the science is always screwed by to many factors to list. This is just my opinion.

 

[Eb1]

That is an honest statement, and I have groups somewhere in packing, but it was a Colt HBAR Post Ban upper with CMMG lower and a standard 4.5 lbs trigger.

I did this with Black Hills 55 grain SP blue box ammo.

 

[FlyinBryan]

my heavy barreled ar15 is the most accurate rifle ive ever owned.

ive only got 4 bolt actions though. (2 9130's, a savage, and a remington.)

 

[Howard Roark]

My .02 cents. The AR has a couple of disadvantages that a bolt gun doesn't.

1. Lock time. The fastest AR triggers (Geissele, X-Treme) have a lock time of about 4 milliseconds. A bolt gun like the Tubb 2000 has a lock time of 1 millisecond which is 3 times faster than a Win Mod 70. Faster lock time = less barrel movement.

2. Gas System. The gas block and tube affects barrel harmonics differently shot to shot. As the barrel heats up tension from the gas system varies. When something is bolted on the barrel and then passes through the receiver and contacts the carrier there is no way that it will stay the same through the temperature variations that a barrel sees both internal and external. The gas tube changes over time due to carbon build up internally as well as externally.

Looking at NRA high power records we see that some of the old records are falling. The 1000 point agg that stood for something like 40 years has been broken. The 600 yard record was broken 2 years ago. The first perfect 800 in a registered match was shot 3 years ago and has since been broken again. The person that shot the first 800 with a match rifle also shot an 800 with a service rifle in a nonregisterd match.

The people that shot these new records are not better holders than the competitors were 30, 40 or more years ago. What has allowed these people to shoot to levels not previously possible is simply technology. Guns are better than they were years ago. Triggers, sights, stocks and most likely barrel quality are better than the've ever been. Don't forget the invention of VLD bullets and improvements in powder and primers.

An AR can win the game of high power because it essentially is a 2 MOA game. I doubt that we will see AR's take over bench rest, see disavantages #1&2.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Jeff56,

I was referring to quality of parts given the design of the two operating systems. If you find that hard to understand then I should have made it more clear. The AR platform has inherent disadvantages compared to a bolt action (assuming we are talking about a target style action that is stiff and robust). The constraints of being forced to use a small detachable magazine that limits your options for ammo, alone is a huge disadvantage compared to a bolt action.

Not to say that an AR can't be made to be very accurate.

 

[Eb1]

Not neccessarlily, Coal_Dragger.
You can single load ARs as well, and what if the magazine length ammo is the most accurate in the said AR. I see zero advantage to either action.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Single loading an AR is a crutch that match shooters have to fall back on to run long heavy for caliber bullets that make the rifle competitive at the longer yardages of say a national match course. The magazine well is a limiting factor in the AR's design, and while magazine length ammo may be the most accurate at shorter distances I think you'll find that at longer ranges with an AR you'll need to be single loading long for caliber bullets.

If you want a rifle to single load and punch paper with off of a bench, a single shot Nesika will give you better results than an AR will. When I see an AR win a benchrest competition (not that I see benchrest shooting as all that useful) at the national level then we can say that it has no disadvantages in mechanical accuracy. Until then, you can believe what you want to but that will not make it so. I'll take proven results over speculation, and if absolute mechanical accuracy is what I am after I'll go for a bolt action.

 

[Eb1]

So you are saying that bolt gun shooters don't load longer than magazine length?
Your reasonings are not very solid. IMO.. You can only shoot one round at a time anyway, and the question was which was a more accurate action. It cannot be answered.

 

[scythefwd]

Since the stock and the receiver on a bench gun is bolted and custom fitted as one piece, there is a very slight advantage theoretically. Yes, the stock is removable, but the action is held firm, by screws and custom bedding blocks, so that the action isn't movable in the stock.

The AR's points of contact with the shooter are not one solid piece with the barrel and bolt carrier groups. There is potential (whether it actually surfaces or not) for the guns upper to shift minutely during the shot on the AR since it is not one solid piece with the buttstock. If the the upper was bolted so as to draw it down into the lower instead of having it pinned in place with smooth pins (threaded pins would eliminate the ability for it to theoretically slide side to side) there is potential for play. On old military rifles I had in basic... I could actually move the upper in the lower. I wouldn't expect to feel any play in a bench AR, but not feeling it move .0001 of an inch will still move your POI. Especially if that movement occurs during the shot.

 

[chrome_austex]

Its going to come down to the gun. In general, they're quite close (overlapping actually), with a slight nod to the modern bolt gun on average.

However, many ARs will out-shoot many bolt guns.

 

[Howard Roark]

If the the upper was bolted so as to draw it down into the lower instead of having it pinned in place with smooth pins (threaded pins would eliminate the ability for it to theoretically slide side to side) there is potential for play.

Bedding the upper and lower is a technique to help the AR shoot better. It's especially useful when shooting the larger calibers like the Hagar and 6mm BR off the smaller AR15 platform, rather than AR10. Service rifles are allowed to be modified by installing a draw down screw throught the through lower into the rear lug of the upper to make them more rigid.