Bond Arms/Boberg Ultra Compact 9mm BullPup

[Jeb Stuart]

So far, I've got 433 rounds through mine, and not one separation. I'm pretty much convinced that if the round you're firing is crimped, you won't have a problem (granted, I haven't shot a huge variety of rounds yet). I think a lot of the reputation the Boberg got for separations was due to the fact that Boberg kind of used his pre-order customers as beta testers. When the first Bobergs went out, no one knew they'd pull uncrimped rounds apart, so of course a bunch of folks grabbed their Blazer off the shelf and filled their magwell full of loose powder. Since a lot of those folks were gun writers, that immediately gave the Boberg a reputation for unreliability.

If Boberg had done the testing beforehand and specified "All ammo must be crimped" from the beginning (as Bond is now doing), I suspect it would have been a non-issue. Look at the Kimber Solo; it's picky too (can't reliably cycle 115 grain ammo), but it's not considered a bad carry gun, because Kimber says upfront in the manual to use 124 gr or better.

For what it's worth, it carries nicely in my front jeans pocket. I still need to get a real pocket holster; all I have at the moment is a cheap neoprene one. It works, but doesn't draw cleanly. A nice fitted leather pocket holster should solve that. It feels great though.

I laugh at the many Youtube videos of both the so called experts as well as a lot of the general public. I saw the nonsense bashing of the Boberg and took it for what it was. Saw the same garbage with Ruger LCR9mm. I love the LCR, and have shot thousands of rounds through the gun without one crimp jump on ammo that I easily sorted out to do just fine.
The internet work this way. Some guy post his 9mm jumped crimp, and before you know it, it goes viral. Now ten's of thousands of posters have fast become a LCR9mm expert and will be so fast to tell you not to buy the LCR9mm as it will jump crimp.

I see this in reviews of different firearms as well. There is one video where the stupid jerk is telling everyone how bad a pistol is and yet his video clearly shows him limp wristing the gun. It is his first time shooting the pistol and he uses his off hand to showoff, only to look like a damn fool. How can so many tell you that their gun is the best of the class, when they have never even shot a comparable model.

Crimp jump in a Bogerg is a ridiculous concern, the same way it is ridiculous in a Ruger LCR9mm. It is only a concern for the guy that just does not want to take the time to know his firearm. Yes I have studied the Boberg in detail, and I want one. My only real Concern? Is the fact I just cannot afford one right now.

 

[PabloJ]

Crimp jump in a Bogerg is a ridiculous concern, the same way it is ridiculous in a Ruger LCR9mm. It is only a concern for the guy that just does not want to take the time to know his firearm. Yes I have studied the Boberg in detail, and I want one. My only real Concern? Is the fact I just cannot afford one right now.

There is nothing wrong with LCR9mm revolver except that it is inferior in every way when compared to gold standard of carry guns which is Glock 26. The Boberg is needlessly complex design that has zero to offer over conventional design pistol of similar size.

 

[Rex B]

Looked at one last year and talked to the Bond rep. He said Bond was re-engineering some details for reliability before they would re-release it. I have no idea what they changed. But I want one. I'll buy one once the market settles a bit.

 

[kemikos]

The Boberg is needlessly complex design that has zero to offer over conventional design pistol of similar size.

Zero to offer over your "gold standard" G26? Well, maybe, if you completely ignore the fact that it's over 1.25" shorter, smaller in every dimension, and has essentially the same length barrel.

The Bullpup fits in my pocket with room to spare. The G26 doesn't fit at all. That's what the BP offers me.

Hey, if the Glock is a perfect fit for you and works in every situation you encounter, great! I'm not trying to convince you to change, but I don't see the need to crap on everyone else's opinions...

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Lol, I do not even think he knows the difference between a revolver and a Pistol. He should have his own Youtube channel. Just what we need another expert. He meant to say the Boberg is TOO complex for him to understand or even figure out the difference in size. I love internet phrases like "The Gold Standard". Very cute.

 

[JohnKSa]

One interesting and very unique feature of the pistol is that it can fire TWO rounds after the magazine is removed.

The claw that removes rounds from the mag and chambers them can retain a round when the magazine is removed. Chamber a round and remove the mag. That's not real easy since it will involve fighting the round in the mag that's being held by the claw. Then pulling the trigger fires the chambered round and chambers the round held by the claw. If the trigger is pulled again the gun will fire again.

You can see it happen at about 10:00 into the video.

 

[ChanceMcCall]

I own a very early Boberg 9MM and a very early Bond Bullpup. This gun has made me a believer if the user is carrying concealed and expects a need at 15 yards or less. At those ranges, this gun is superior for close quarters combat to any gun I have ever owned, except for the caliber.

I have well over 10,000 rounds through the Boberg. Any problems were early and mostly involved in my learning to insert magazines with authority and to rack the slide with both pull push motion and to properly lubricate. I have about 1,000 rounds through the Bond.

If I had confidence in 9MM, this would be the only gun I would consider as a urban concealed carry piece.

 

[ChanceMcCall]

Looked at one last year and talked to the Bond rep. He said Bond was re-engineering some details for reliability before they would re-release it. I have no idea what they changed. But I want one. I'll buy one once the market settles a bit.

The only thing I can see is the coating to replace the anti-seize grease, and the wood grips.

 

[ChanceMcCall]

I viewed the videos and find that gun most interesting...and expensive. I am trying to figure out if it is more of an novelty or a practical ccw. I would look foward to learning more about it.

To me it has two major advantages:

1. The design would make it very difficult for anyone, including a trained expert, to take the gun away from you in a situation where they can get their hands on you;
2. It has an almost mystical pointability at close (10 yards or less) range making instinctive shooting more accurate. I can keep the whole magazine in rapid fire inside of a four inch group from the waist.

It is also pretty small for a 9MM, yet easy to shoot.

 

[Sistema1927]

Interesting concept. If the cost comes down I would certainly consider one.

 

[Rembrandt]

Been carrying a Boberg since they first came out. Most controllable compact 9 I've ever shot. The unique action and grip design keeps the recoil firmly in the web of the hand, thus making follow up shots more manageable. Don't know of any other as compact that can shoot +P ammo.

 

[DT Guy]

There is nothing wrong with LCR9mm revolver except that it is inferior in every way when compared to gold standard of carry guns which is Glock 26. The Boberg is needlessly complex design that has zero to offer over conventional design pistol of similar size.

I'm interested to hear your experiences with the Boberg; they must have been pretty dramatic, to have left such a strong impression.

Larry

 

[ChanceMcCall]

I'm interested to hear your experiences with the Boberg; they must have been pretty dramatic, to have left such a strong impression.

Larry

I too would be interested in his experiences.

Most of the time when I read negative things about the Boberg it is usually because someone is concerned that not every brand and type of ammo will function in the gun or they jammed up the gun because of a lack of anti-seize grease, or they don't understand the need to forcefully insert the magazine or the need for push pull slide racking. In short, they don't know what they are doing and they blame the gun rather than themselves.

On the ammo issue:

It is a very good thing they aren't old enough to have gone through what many of us went through with almost any ammo other than hardball in the 1911 before the feed ramps were changed and polished.

They also would not like any of the Seecamp guns, despite the fact that many LEOs depended on them for years as backups and sometimes as their only gun in deep cover situations. Only one recommended round and in the .25 ACP, a round no longer in production.

On the need for special maintenance:

All of the early stainless steel guns - revolvers and semi automatics

As to the rest of it, I have no words. Is it too much to expect that not all guns operate the same way and thus require learning how a gun works before condemning it?

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Well said. I have seen this kind of disparagement so many times on the internet with so many firearms. Amazing how some one has a malfunction, something minor, or some guy pickups up a gun and he simply could not handle it, was not use to the gun etc. and it turns into a wildfire and spreads to a million people that now are Know it all's. They are now experts that can tell you not to buy a gun. I have read quite a bit about the Boberg. Yes, it seems to not like some cheap training ammo. So what? A true owner gets to know his gun and can quickly sort out the right ammo. I saw this with the Ruger LCR9mm. Form the internet you would think Crimp Jump was a chronic and constant problem. As a owner, it was easy for myself to find the right ammo of which there are MANY and for the last two years have been shooting the gun religiously without one failure.
Personally I would love to own a Bond/Boberg. When you pay attention to the real dedicated owners of the gun rather than some guy that has never even shot one, owned one, or did not spend the time with one, you find that it is a really nice firearm.
Your comment "As to the rest of it, I have no words. Is it too much to expect that not all guns operate the same way and thus require learning how a gun works before condemning it?" should be a sticky. Thanks for posting and thanks to the OP for more information on this fine firearm.

 

[kemikos]

It is a very good thing they aren't old enough to have gone through what many of us went through with almost any ammo other than hardball in the 1911 before the feed ramps were changed and polished.

Preach.

Is it too much to expect that not all guns operate the same way and thus require learning how a gun works before condemning it?

Well, now, it seems like a lot of shooters have a hard time with firearm choices that are more complicated than "Do you want a Springfield(tm)-brand glock, a Smith and Wesson(tm)-brand glock, or a Glock(tm)-brand glock?

It's really not a bad thing that the standard for reliability has increased so much even in the last ten years, but it does mean that a lot of people won't consider anything with a different manual of arms, even though the design may be just as good or even superior. They just don't have the patience to learn the idiosyncracies of a different gun...

 

[Rodentman]

I have a Boberg XR45S. I had two bullet pulls but increased my crimp on them. Works well now, with a few glitches. I am pleased with it generally but mostly it's the novelty factor. The special grease and reassembly are a bit fiddly and knowing what I know now I probably would have passed on it.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Lol, I saw a number of bad reviews of the Beretta Pico. Yes, the gun is different than some of the larger guns, thin grip, streamlined to the point it appears to have been made in a wind tunnel. I listened and took them for what they were. Like the YOUTUBE where this fool goes to the shot show and picks the gun up for the first time in his life and then proceeds to limp wrist the gun, it fails on a round when he shows off shooting with his offhand. Yet, it is now a expert and goes on to make a video to disparage the gun Funny, the video only exposed himself to be a fool.
I ended up buying the Pico and can honestly say it turned out to be a pure bred winner in every regard. Thousands of rounds through the gun and I ended up buying a second. And that gun a total winner as well.
Most modern day firearms do quite well. Some Youtuber has a miff while shooting, and you find out he goes to the range once every few years. Then there are the Paid Endorsers. Kahr has one, and you can tell right away. It all goes with the territory.

 

[farm23]

If I were interested in a 9, the Bullpup would be on the list. I do not expect them to go down however as Bond has a price increase the first of the year.

 

[redlace]

I bought one about as soon as they were available and ended up with serial #000135.

I generally like the gun, but had to return it to Bond Arms for a refund based on my experience with the gun, both at the range and after a detailed mechanical analysis at the workbench.

I'm happy to acknowledge that Bond Arms was gracious and accommodating, provided excellent customer service throughout, and gave me a full refund when I returned the gun. They treated me fairly, and I'll definitely recommend their (other) products based on that.

There's a lot to like about the Bullpup 9mm. It's fairly compact, it has manageable recoil, it's reasonably comfortable to shoot, and it's pretty accurate. The double action trigger is remarkably smooth. In most ways, it's a great example of expert craftsmanship.

There are only a couple of things I'd change about the external design details and they are primarily focused on the shape and width of the grips.

Unfortunately, there's a significant flaw in the internal mechanical design of the gun, and that's what killed it for me. I found that - unlike any other semi-auto I've owned or used - improperly positioning the top round in the magazine (by accident or by design) will cause the action to lock up. This is not simply a manufacturing defect with my particular gun. If you have one, you can re-create the problem yourself.

Simply stated: If the top round in the mag is pushed back about 1/8" from the front of the magazine, the slide will be locked in place when you insert the loaded mag into the gun. What's happening is that the cartridge rim ends up behind the lip at the bottom of the guide/feed ramp on the bolt face. Please see my youtube video review for a detailed explanation and demonstration:


I have shared this information with Bond Arms, so they are aware of the problem. The gun does function as designed . . . unfortunately the design includes the ability for the gun to lock up tight. At the very least, Bond should consider including a note to buyers along the lines of "NOTE FOR END-USER: Slight misalignment of ammo in magazine will render this pistol inoperative until corrected."

There are a couple other owners on this forum who have shot thousands of rounds through their Bond Bullpups with no issues. I am genuinely happy for you, and wish I'd had the same experience. I can hear you as you're shaking your heads and telling me "Just make sure the rounds are pushed all the way forward and you won't have any trouble".

Here's my response to that line of reasoning:
1. Design defects are not an option in a $1000 gun. Hell, I wouldn't accept flaws like this in my $325 LCP. If you're going to tell me that I have to get the rounds "just so" in the mag to ensure proper cycling of a high-end gun, I'm calling BS. If a loaded mag will go into the mag well without any apparent issue, the system should bloody well work.
Unless the rounds are so far out of the mag that you can't even load the mag into the gun, there is really only one standard to achieve: the rounds feed from wherever they are in the mag, every time.
If that's not possible, the manufacturer should design the mags so that loading them ensures the rounds can only go exactly where they're supposed to go in the mag for proper feeding, every time . . .
. . . because . . .
2. The last thing I need to worry about during a magazine change under duress (whether at a competition or in a self-defense scenario) is remembering to push the rounds forward in the mag.
stuff happens - mags get jostled, hands and fingers fumble . . . and the rounds aren't always going to line up perfectly. Murphy's law dictates that it will happen at the worst possible time.
Least case, the user fails in a competition. Worst case, the user fails at life.

Consider these scenarios:
1. You fire seven rounds and drop the empty mag. The top round on mag #2 gets accidentally nudged to the rear on the way out of your pocket, as you fumble with it, etc. You try to rack the slide, but you're stuck. You yell "Time Out! I have to clear this . . ."

2. You load a 7-round mag and begin shooting. You're counting your shots, so you fire 6 rounds, knowing that the 6th round will cycle the 7th round into the chamber and leave you with an empty mag. You drop the first mag and load a second, full magazine. You plan to continue shooting from there . . . Only problem is, you accidentally nudged the top round rearward in mag #2 when you pulled it out of your pocket, so the slide is effectively locked in place.
What happens when you squeeze the trigger?
- Does the recoiling slide cause the case rim to rip the bottom edge of the guide/feed ramp off the bolt face? Probably not - it's brass v. stainless steel (what if you're using steel cased cartridges, or those new Shell-Shock cartridges?).
- Does the recoiling slide cause the lip of the guide/feed ramp to bend or rip off a portion of the case rim? . . . preventing the round from loading and/or fouling the internals of the gun?
- Does the recoiling slide cause the guide/feed ramp to tear open the cartridge at the case rim? . . . really fouling the internals of the gun?

That might make for an interesting science experiment - anyone out there who still owns one of these want to give it a try?

 

[ChanceMcCall]

I bought one about as soon as they were available and ended up with serial #000135.

Unfortunately, there's a significant flaw in the internal mechanical design of the gun, and that's what killed it for me. I found that - unlike any other semi-auto I've owned or used - improperly positioning the top round in the magazine (by accident or by design) will cause the action to lock up. This is not simply a manufacturing defect with my particular gun. If you have one, you can re-create the problem yourself.

Simply stated: If the top round in the mag is pushed back about 1/8" from the front of the magazine, the slide will be locked in place when you insert the loaded mag into the gun. What's happening is that the cartridge rim ends up behind the lip at the bottom of the guide/feed ramp on the bolt face. Please see my youtube video review for a detailed explanation and demonstration:


I have shared this information with Bond Arms, so they are aware of the problem. The gun does function as designed . . . unfortunately the design includes the ability for the gun to lock up tight. At the very least, Bond should consider including a note to buyers along the lines of "NOTE FOR END-USER: Slight misalignment of ammo in magazine will render this pistol inoperative until corrected."

There are a couple other owners on this forum who have shot thousands of rounds through their Bond Bullpups with no issues. I am genuinely happy for you, and wish I'd had the same experience. I can hear you as you're shaking your heads and telling me "Just make sure the rounds are pushed all the way forward and you won't have any trouble".

Here's my response to that line of reasoning:
1. Design defects are not an option in a $1000 gun. Hell, I wouldn't accept flaws like this in my $325 LCP. If you're going to tell me that I have to get the rounds "just so" in the mag to ensure proper cycling of a high-end gun, I'm calling BS. If a loaded mag will go into the mag well without any apparent issue, the system should bloody well work.
Unless the rounds are so far out of the mag that you can't even load the mag into the gun, there is really only one standard to achieve: the rounds feed from wherever they are in the mag, every time.
If that's not possible, the manufacturer should design the mags so that loading them ensures the rounds can only go exactly where they're supposed to go in the mag for proper feeding, every time . . .
. . . because . . .
2. The last thing I need to worry about during a magazine change under duress (whether at a competition or in a self-defense scenario) is remembering to push the rounds forward in the mag.
stuff happens - mags get jostled, hands and fingers fumble . . . and the rounds aren't always going to line up perfectly. Murphy's law dictates that it will happen at the worst possible time.
Least case, the user fails in a competition. Worst case, the user fails at life.

Consider these scenarios:
1. You fire seven rounds and drop the empty mag. The top round on mag #2 gets accidentally nudged to the rear on the way out of your pocket, as you fumble with it, etc. You try to rack the slide, but you're stuck. You yell "Time Out! I have to clear this . . ."

2. You load a 7-round mag and begin shooting. You're counting your shots, so you fire 6 rounds, knowing that the 6th round will cycle the 7th round into the chamber and leave you with an empty mag. You drop the first mag and load a second, full magazine. You plan to continue shooting from there . . . Only problem is, you accidentally nudged the top round rearward in mag #2 when you pulled it out of your pocket, so the slide is effectively locked in place.
What happens when you squeeze the trigger?
- Does the recoiling slide cause the case rim to rip the bottom edge of the guide/feed ramp off the bolt face? Probably not - it's brass v. stainless steel (what if you're using steel cased cartridges, or those new Shell-Shock cartridges?).
- Does the recoiling slide cause the lip of the guide/feed ramp to bend or rip off a portion of the case rim? . . . preventing the round from loading and/or fouling the internals of the gun?
- Does the recoiling slide cause the guide/feed ramp to tear open the cartridge at the case rim? . . . really fouling the internals of the gun?

That might make for an interesting science experiment - anyone out there who still owns one of these want to give it a try?

I have been trying for several hours to replicate the hypothetical "accidental nudge" you alluded to. I have not had any success.

This, to me, seems like the extension discussed earlier here, and on many other forums, about using brands of ammo suggested by first Boberg and then Bond to avoid poorly crimped ammo. Actually, with a bit of bending of the thinking you put out here, similar criticisms could be laid on single action revolvers which are different from double action revolvers in many ways and require different knowledge and expertise to use effectively

Computer technical support has some terms for this type of problem: PEBKAC - ID-10T - PICNIC - IBM error and several other abbreviations for the same problem. This gun is a specialty item and requires some operator knowledge and practice to operate it effectively. When that is done, the gun operates as expected and handles some jobs better than almost any other gun out there.

Now, would it be better if less knowledge and practice were required? Absolutely. I remember my early days with a computer struggling with lots of little black pieces of plastic film that had to be taken in and out of a 200 pound personal computer and several walls of sticky notes with DOS codes and commands and thinking there had to be a better way. I also remember the early days of the internet and thinking there had to be a better way. Now we have the world wide web and Apple Computers (still easier than Microsoft OS) and I am grateful. None of that takes away the value those early computers provided my business or the value of access to the early internet.

I'm both experienced and proficient in the use of guns in serious social situations. In my opinion, this design, despite its quirks of ammo and magazine loading, is the finest close quarters firearm I've ever handled. It would be my hands down choice if it was a .45ACP and the only thing I would ever dream of using for urban concealed carry. Would I choose something else if I were still on the job? Yes, but only because the mission changes for sworn personnel who often have to become the aggressors. Would I carry it for horseback camping trips or hunting trips? No.

This gun is already (Boberg) my wife's carry gun. The Bond Bullpup may become mine, but the whole issue for me is caliber. So, we agree to disagree.

 

[Rembrandt]

I too tried to duplicate the problem mentioned by redlace, couldn't make it malfunction either. Mine is one of the first run Bobergs, never had an issue or a problem. Carry it daily, wonderful compact package. My son also has a Boberg 9 and his has also worked flawlessly.

Reminds me of GI's that will tap their magazines on their helmets to seat rounds that may have shifted before inserting the magazine into the firearm.

 

[redlace]

I have been trying for several hours to replicate the hypothetical "accidental nudge" you alluded to. I have not had any success.

This, to me, seems like the extension discussed earlier here, and on many other forums, about using brands of ammo suggested by first Boberg and then Bond to avoid poorly crimped ammo. Actually, with a bit of bending of the thinking you put out here, similar criticisms could be laid on single action revolvers which are different from double action revolvers in many ways and require different knowledge and expertise to use effectively

Computer technical support has some terms for this type of problem: PEBKAC - ID-10T - PICNIC - IBM error and several other abbreviations for the same problem. This gun is a specialty item and requires some operator knowledge and practice to operate it effectively. When that is done, the gun operates as expected and handles some jobs better than almost any other gun out there.

Now, would it be better if less knowledge and practice were required? Absolutely. I remember my early days with a computer struggling with lots of little black pieces of plastic film that had to be taken in and out of a 200 pound personal computer and several walls of sticky notes with DOS codes and commands and thinking there had to be a better way. I also remember the early days of the internet and thinking there had to be a better way. Now we have the world wide web and Apple Computers (still easier than Microsoft OS) and I am grateful. None of that takes away the value those early computers provided my business or the value of access to the early internet.

I'm both experienced and proficient in the use of guns in serious social situations. In my opinion, this design, despite its quirks of ammo and magazine loading, is the finest close quarters firearm I've ever handled. It would be my hands down choice if it was a .45ACP and the only thing I would ever dream of using for urban concealed carry. Would I choose something else if I were still on the job? Yes, but only because the mission changes for sworn personnel who often have to become the aggressors. Would I carry it for horseback camping trips or hunting trips? No.

This gun is already (Boberg) my wife's carry gun. The Bond Bullpup may become mine, but the whole issue for me is caliber. So, we agree to disagree.

Interesting that you haven't been able to replicate the problem on the Boberg. I know Bond say they made some changes, I wonder if this was one of them?
I'm also with you on the PEBKAC - in fact I mentioned something along those lines when I was talking with Bond about it, as I didn't want to be the idiot that proved their idiot-proof design . . . wasn't. That said, I have email confirmation from Bond that they were able to replicate the issue with their guns. I'm happy to share that with you as 3rd party (manufacturer) validation of the issue.
I also agree that this gun is a specialty item and requires some operator knowledge. You're on the mark with that, and I'll just say this ain't my first rodeo.
I am truly glad you like your Boberg - I've been following this gun since it was a Boberg, and really looking forward to getting one. For a lot of reasons, I like the Bond - a lot - and I'm sure many of my reasons for liking it mirror your own. But after I experienced this problem, I didn't feel like I could trust it. Even with experience and proficiency.

 

[redlace]

I too tried to duplicate the problem mentioned by redlace, couldn't make it malfunction either. Mine is one of the first run Bobergs, never had an issue or a problem. Carry it daily, wonderful compact package. My son also has a Boberg 9 and his has also worked flawlessly.

Reminds me of GI's that will tap their magazines on their helmets to seat rounds that may have shifted before inserting the magazine into the firearm.

I'll offer a similar response to what I said to Chance - It's curious that you can't replicate the problem on your Boberg. But again, Bond may have changed the design enough that this is unique to their version and doesn't show up on the Bobergs. I'll offer the same thing to you, though - let me know if you want to see the email chain between me and Bond. They replicated the issue on their guns at the factory and confirmed it with me.
As a retired Soldier, I'm well-acquainted with the mag taps - happened every time I loaded a magazine in the M16 or M4. I just didn't feel like that should be a necessary process in a situation where I'm rapidly reloading this pistol under duress.

 

[redlace]

Chance -
Also - I was using their recommended ammo.
When it loaded successfully, it fired beautifully.

 

[kemikos]

Chance -
Also - I was using their recommended ammo.
When it loaded successfully, it fired beautifully.

I'll have to test it in my Bullpup (000342).

Not sure I'm ready to send it back if it does the same thing (not casting any aspersions on your decision to do so, however), but it's good information to know regardless.