Braced Pistols??

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Sniper66, Mar 21, 2021.

  1. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    I was responding to his post above where he made several inaccurate statements.
     
  2. CraigC
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    CraigC Sixgun Nut

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    I reiterate the question. How are those statements going to get someone in trouble?
     
  3. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    Misleading statements perhaps? Like saying the ATF endorsed the shouldering of them ect. I think the whole issue could be handled by allowing with a handicap placard holder. However that is NOT the real issue honestly is it ? Swami Gordon predicts there will be radical changes coming from this admin BEFORE the mid term elections , the Dems, unlike the Reps in 2017 are not going to miss a chance on their agenda of evil
     
  4. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    Most everybody's pistol ARs seam overpriced I'll second the build your own.
    I also agree 10" or shorter 300 Blackout is much better than 5
    56
     
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  5. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    I already pointed out the problems.
     
  6. CraigC
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    CraigC Sixgun Nut

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    No, you didn't, hence the question, three times now.
     
  7. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    I feel I did, but I'll write it so you can hopefully understand.

    His posts contained several inaccuracies....I noted each one by quoting it in my reply.

    My comment you seem unable to understand:
    People who post things like "basically just", "only real difference", "not a stock but you can use it as one"............are wholly and completely the wrong advice to give. Yeah, I'm nitpicking. Because nitpicking keeps folks from losing their gun rights forever. Equating an arm brace with a shoulder stock is ill advised. WHY? Well for one, attach an arm brace with a "length of pull" over a certain amount and ATF no longer considers it an arm brace. Didja think of that???;)

    Further, in subsequent posts he wrote:
    "A "pistol" with a brace that "can be shouldered" by the ATF's own admission, is no different than a SBR with a stock." ........Clearly incorrect. If you don't know why, I'll let you do your own research.
    Then.....
    "If you can shoulder a brace, why cant you have a stock on the gun?" .......which shows a complete and utter lack of knowledge on the National Firearms Act. Putting a shoulder stock on a pistol creates an SBR.

    In short, he equates a Title I firearm in a certain configuration as being the same as an SBR......they are decidedly not.
     
  8. bassjam

    bassjam Member

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    While dogtown tom isn't being completely honest, this is also something that's a very grey area and openly pretending that an arm brace is just a shorter stock is they type of thing that'll make arm braces go the way that bump stocks did so his responses aren't completely out of line either.

    At the end of the day the ATF is forced to make judgement based on their interpretation of a 90 year old law, which is difficult because things like bump stocks and arm braces didn't exist back then. Suing the ATF will force an outcome that you're probably not going to like because the solution would likely be to be to ban them, or have Congress write a new law on them and who wants Congress involved in such a thing even if Republicans controlled Congress and the Presidency.

    When it comes to arm braces, don't ask, don't tell, do your best to follow what the ATF memo of the month says but don't think that a published letter is going to prevent you from becoming a felon if some cop and prosecutor decides to push the issue. SBR's are illegal, therefore adding an armbrace to a pistol with the intent to use it as a stock for an SBR....if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck is it a duck? Even taking a few random shots here and there with the armbrace on your pistol tucked up in the pocket of your shoulder....I think it's best to treat it like the first rule of Fight Club.
     
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  9. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    I fully understand the NFA and have been living with it for about 40 years now. Dealt with the ATF on a fairly regular, face to face basis for a number of years too.

    You seem to be missing my point about "whats the difference" because THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, if they allow you to shoulder a brace, then how is it any different than shouldering the same gun with a stock on it? THERE IS NONE! I don't care how the law reads, it is what it is. Im not saying it isn't. Im simply saying it needs to be challenged and addressed.

    I understand the "law" says one thing, but I don't understand when they obviously conflict in their rulings, how they can stand, and they arent challenged. You cant have it both ways, the SBR laws should go away, because there is no difference between shouldering a stock, and shouldering a brace. So BASICALLY, shoulder a brace is no different than shouldering a stock. How hard is a that to understand? Seems it must be pretty hard, because I seem to have to keep repeating it.

    Same thing goes for the Shockwave type shotguns. There is no difference, but there is a difference. What a crock.

    Another thing that really pisses me off is, people who get all holier than thou about obviously unconstitutional "rules", and bend over backward to try and get everyone to follow them. Those people are enablers. I understand they are "the rules", and we should follow them, the best we can, especially with the ATF constantly flip flopping at a whim, but we should all also be AGGRESSIVELY doing everything possible to repeal ALL the unconstitutional gun laws, not try to appease those who want to take our rights from us.

    There is nothing there that I said that is "wrong". I, and from what Ive seen, so is everyone else with a brace on their guns these days, is following what the ATF stated. Why do you think everyone and their brother has a brace on their guns now? Its not to strap it to the arm. :thumbup:

    They did issue a letter that the braces couldn't be shouldered, and then they changed their minds, and said they could, where is the letter that they now say that ALL braces are in violation? All Ive seen is one company did something that pissed someone off and they got a letter telling them to stop. Whats the disposition of that now? Since youre so sure its wrong, where is the letter now saying that its illegal to shoulder ALL of them again? The fact that it might be just one, just makes things even more untenable and ridiculous.
     
  10. drobs

    drobs Member

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    You play the cards you're dealt.
    Shouldering braced "pistols" is currently legal. Great, we all can enjoy shooting AR pistols for a time.
     
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  11. Steve in NC

    Steve in NC Member

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    Sniper66,
    I have a MK10 Banshee myself in 10mm Auto. I'll directly address your questions on this and leave the rest alone.

    Banshee:
    - Trigger was ok. Basic mil-spec nothing great but from the factory was a serviceable trigger. You can install any standard AR after market trigger if you so choose. Nothing proprietary in the fire control group.

    - Magazine: Again my Banshee is a Mk10 PCC in 10mm. So it came with the SGM (korean made??) 30rd magazine. My magazine does feed just fine. Problem I see is when you hit the mag release, I train so my mags drop free with zero resistance. I've tried everything I know of and these SBM mags swell up with ammo in them, and stick in the mag well when empty. Have used a file, emory paper etc. No go. Glock factory 10mm mags.... flawless. Feed/function and drop clear every time.

    - Barrel Nut setup is proprietary to CMMG which means you have to use their handguard. But it doesn't need a proprietary wrench to take the nut off! A standard armor's wrench works fine. I don't have any issues with thier handguard setup with m-lok slots so it is not a problem for me. Just an FYI to you so you are informed.

    - Accuracy: I'm more than happy with the accuracy from my 10mm. My personal intent for buying this weapon was for 0-100yds. I can head shot at 100yds easily with it even chambered for a PCC caliber. (I've shot other 556 AR pistols in various lengths. You would be surprised at the accuracy they deliver at extended ranges.)

    - Overall Quality of the Banshee - all the screws were properly torqued with thread lockers from the factory. That is a sign of attention to detail. This is something I always check on any AR 's I own or work on for others. Tear it apart and make sure it has thread locker on all screws/accessories so you aren't having a yard sale on the range in the middle of a long training session when vibrations and heat start to cause issues if little things like thread locker isn't properly used.

    - Customer service - I actually had an issue with mine within the first 100 rds that I sent it back to CMMG. This was right in the beginning of the COVID lockdown and things were starting to get busy. They turned it around in a reasonable amount of time and I no longer had the FTE issues with zero cost to me. My LGS bent over backward to help also. Have put several 1000 rds through it after that with zero functioning issues.

    Now there is one thing with this weapon that is specific to being chambered in 10mm Auto that I wish I knew up front before purchasing. This is ONLY for 10mm that I'm aware of!!

    If you reload and you are interested in a Banshee in 10mm the chamber is actually short and has more than standard case head protrusion to aid in extracting and feeding of this longer case. This is complicated with the various levels of pressure loads you can buy for the 10mm also. 10mm ammo is loaded from very light 40S&W pressure levels up to nuclear. So they designed their PCC with a radial-delayed blowback design and supplied me with 2 different buffers for this vary reason. In 10mm the back .300" of the case head can/does swell because of this design upon firing. So if you reload 10mm you will need to deal with this. 95% of the cases can be run through the GR-x or bulge buster dies and reload just fine. This does take extra time and steps and obviously works the brass a lot more than it should. If you get the load too hot sometimes you can't get it through the sizing die and the case(s) are junk. This will have to be your personal choice if this is an issue for you or not. And again, this is only in 10mm that I'm aware of.
    I have another friend who owns 2 Banshees in 9mm PCC's and has NONE of these issues and those guns have run 100% from the word go. And they do run their guns hard!

    Hope this helps you.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
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  12. Sniper66

    Sniper66 Member

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    Steve, Thanks a million for this helpful summary. Very useful info. Tom
     
  13. Styx

    Styx Member

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    Your best bet is to ask in the AR15.com dedicated AR15 pistol forum else you'll get a lot of interference and noise from the anti pistol and brace crowd.

    [Edit] I see that @Steve in NC was nice enough to help.
     
  14. CraigC
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    CraigC Sixgun Nut

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    I didn't ask about inaccuracies, real or imagined. I asked how would it get someone in trouble. In your rush to show us all how smart you are and let us know we are just flies in your spider world, which seems to be more modus operandi, you didn't really do that. There's no trouble to get in putting a brace on a pistol, rifle or shotgun. The only thing one could do in this context to get themselves in trouble, is to install a buttstock on a pistol without an SBR stamp. Nowhere did anyone here suggest doing that.

    As far as the functional difference, there really isn't one. The brace has all but obsoleted the SBR stamp, which is the appeal of the damned things in the first place. The only real bummer is that you can't add a vertical foregrip without a stamp.
     
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  15. drobs

    drobs Member

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    I wouldn't wait 20 weeks for anything gun related right now. Especially an AR pistol that the left is targeting.
     
  16. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    I used to have an AR pistol (300 Blackout) with a brace until recently. It just did not light my fire even though it was very accurate. It was too uncomfortable to shoot in part due to it being a AR.

    I sold the upper and am rebuilding the lower into a rifle.

    Just my opinion, try it, you might like it.
     
  17. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Please show the officer where dogtown tom touched you.:rofl:



    "A "pistol" with a brace that "can be shouldered" by the ATF's own admission, is no different than a SBR with a stock."
    "If you can shoulder a brace, why cant you have a stock on the gun?" .



    Sure there is.
    "arm braces" are limited in LOP, real shoulder stocks are not.
     
  18. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    Youre still taking things out of context, or at least manipulating them.

    If a brace is legal to shoulder, functionally, how is it any different than a stock? Thats the whole point you don't seem to want to deal with.

    As far as the LOP, my braces just happen to have the same LOP as my what my actual stocks are set at.
     
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  19. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    I would like to see a reference to that. If it’s legit then I will make sure mine is at least 1/8” shorter, but I have never seen or heard that and doubt ATF would ever publish such a thing. Not that they wouldn’t go by it, but it makes too much sense to be clear and concise about the rule therefore ATF could not possibly be responsible.
     
  20. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Those are direct quotes........I'm not taking anything out of context.
     
  21. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    They are direct quotes, but you are trying to manipulate the context/meaning that Ive already explained. I guess it must be over your head, so I wont bother to try anymore. :thumbup:
     
  22. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    At one point ATF said it was 13.5"....now it's on a case by case basis.
    Here's an article thats sums up some of the criteria ATF might use: https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/atf-guidance-letter-for-stabilizing-braces-says-each-firearm-considered-on-case-by-case-basis/
     
  23. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    And they've already backed off those, IMHO it's because they know the difference is arbitrary and has zero to do with function and it would lead to SBRs being removed from NFA.
    13.5" is an arbitrary LOP. nothing functional that says you cant physically have a brace with a longer LOP
     
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  24. SW351C

    SW351C Member

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    While being a dedicated 22lr this is a home built gun. Overall length is about 19.5” with a 4.5” barrel. I only push 22lr out to 50 yds. so this gun is the one that gets used most instead of my 22lr rifles anymore.


    254CF7EA-57DA-49D3-BF4F-460FBA9090AA.jpeg
     
  25. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    Is the gun on top have a LAW folding stock ? I run the SB Brace in the cheapest version that just presses on to "your" length , which in my case is 121/2 " LOP for all around indoor CQB outdoor up to 200 yard tactical use on my old , but revamped Noveske Pistol . I was thinking of adding a LAW folding adapter but I think it adds a bout 1 1/2" so I would be heating and beating the SB tactical one down that much farther , but end up with a smaller folded package.
     
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