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Brass Knuckles Or Cane Guns?

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by Roamin_Wade, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. Roamin_Wade

    Roamin_Wade Member

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    I understand that cane guns would be tough to preclude from entering stadiums, post offices, polling locations, etc., but if they have legalized brass knuckles, a cane gun that had a single shot 38 Spl in it should be legalized too. What do you think?
     
  2. MikeInOr

    MikeInOr Member

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    I believe a cane gun is a Tittle II "Any Other Weapon" according to the ATF and requires a tax stamp like a Class 3 fire arm or silencer. I would tread lightly and make darn sure you have the law on your side before carrying such a weapon. Even if you had a legally titled Cane Gun (AOW) and every right to carry it I would still expect trouble from authorities whether it is legal for you to carry it or not.
     
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  3. Roamin_Wade

    Roamin_Wade Member

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    I agree, they aren’t carried willy-nilly. If someone really needs a cane, and they carry a cane gun, what would happen if they went to court on a speeding ticket? If they really couldn’t walk without a cane, they’d have to have another to use in places where carrying a firearm is not allowed, but with that said, if brass knuckles are legal, a senior citizen should be able to have a cane gun, in my opinion?
     
  4. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    You're talking apples and oranges. A cane gun ( a NFA item) is a firearm. Brass knuckles are a striking weapon with no other use.
     
  5. MikeInOr

    MikeInOr Member

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    I like the idea of carrying a disguised weapon... I believe cops REALLY don't like the idea of people being able to carry disguised weapons. Are cops going to start shooting everyone that points a cane at them?
     
  6. George P

    George P Member

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    If you want to carry something like a cane, then just carry a blackthorn shillelagh.......and walk with a limp into the stadium to make it look good............
     
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  7. Roamin_Wade

    Roamin_Wade Member

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    I understand but if someone needs a cane to get around, they damn sure won’t be able to move around fast enough, or with enough strength, to defend themselves from a 25 year old assailant. Besides, what cops prefer is not a consideration compared to what our Liberty should afford us.
     
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  8. james huffaker

    james huffaker Member

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    I agree, if you need a cane, medically, it's not a good choice as your primary weapon. On the other hand, if there be a medical necessity (or not), I want more then one shot. How about a stick to support me, and a blue steel, fixed sight, 6 round, in a caliber that starts with a 4, dead bang reliable, idiot simple, caveman strong and adequately accurate. Something heavy enough to serve as a cudgel and supplemented with say an 8" Randal #2?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
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  9. JeeperCreeper

    JeeperCreeper Member

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    I never understood cane guns...

    If you need a cane, then chances are, swinging up that cane to shoot well be tricky as you just removed your mobility aid

    I can see cane tasers though... Those are cool.
     
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  10. Fiv3r

    Fiv3r Member

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    My opinion, and this is from an able bodied 39 year old male, if I ever reach the age where a cane is needed for my mobility a cane gun would probably come in about 4,342nd on my list of items I would use to defend myself.

    A cane gun is terrible at being a gun and really not designed to be a functioning cane that will offer the right support for a person needing one for mobility.

    My grandfather lived to be 92. Before he started having heart issues 6 months before he died, that little 5'4 95lb SOB could probably punch his way out of an altercation. No formal training, just tenacity. He was still doing push ups, sit ups, and lifting light dumbbells to "stay in shape" in his 90s. He started needing a cane when his knee began to give him trouble when he was about 90. He swung a hammer his whole life as a wood worker. I would not have wanted to be ladled by him.

    So if you approached this little old man with malicious intent, you may have gotten your nose broken with a right cross, you may have gotten hobbled with a hickory cane...be he probably would have just shot you with the .22 in his pocket.
     
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  11. Roamin_Wade

    Roamin_Wade Member

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    I think I’ve seen a cane gun that held 6 rounds of 22 Rimfire that all went off at the same time.
     
  12. Valkman

    Valkman Member

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    You sure about that? Hopefully Bikerdoc will show up and relate his thrashing of a much younger assailant with a cane.
     
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  13. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Apples and bowling balls.

    Unrelated and certainly a cane gun is not a "non-firearms weapon" .
     
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  14. film495

    film495 Member

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    wonder if putting some sort of a solid fuel torch in it could be an option, just don't set it off by accident in the post office …
     
  15. Roamin_Wade

    Roamin_Wade Member

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    A cane is already in the hand, and most probably in your dominate hand. A cane is also a tool that can somewhat keep an assailant further from you than their arm-reach.

    For the folks that say it’s an NFA item, I realize this and the whole point would be to have it removed from that classification. In Texas we have both concealed, and open carry, but most businesses put the appropriate state promulgated signage to prevent open carry in their business. A cane gun would be a concealed weapon and besides, if they are licensed to conceal, would you have a problem with a person so permitted to carry one?
     
  16. Roamin_Wade

    Roamin_Wade Member

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    Also, for the nay-sayers because it’s a single shot, we could make one that is a double shot derringer. Those are popular conceal carry firearms.
     
  17. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    Maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation, not being familiar with Texas law...

    I am aware of no federal restriction on the carry of a legally registered AOW in the state that it is registered in. Federal law doesn't even require a 5320.20 for an AOW transported across state lines.

    So, the real question seems to be whether Texas law actually prohibits the carry of a legally registered AOW.

    Texas Penal Code Chapter 46 "weapons" doesn't explicitly classify disguised firearms or AOW's in general, but does include handguns and "zip guns" which seem to be the only two categories that a cane gun would fit under based on the definitions.

    If Texas considers a cane gun to be a device "... that was not originally a firearm and is adapted to expel a projectile through a smooth-bore or rifled-bore barrel..." (zip gun) then they are illegal for the average civilian to own entirely, let alone carry. If you were to consider the "gun" portion of the cane gun to be concealed in the cane, it would seem to be a verboten "zip gun".

    If Texas considers a cane gun to be a "... firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand..." then you have to worry about whether you are recklessly carrying the handgun. Chapter 46 seems to require openly carried handguns to be in a shoulder or belt holster whether you are in a vehicle or not, and to be carrying a handgun in the hand as you go about your daily business is considered reckless.
     
  18. Roamin_Wade

    Roamin_Wade Member

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    I’ve heard that zip guns are illegal because they don’t have rifling that can be used to prove where a bullet came from, but there may be more to it. Probably a lack of a serial number doesn’t help matters either. I think your assumption that a cane gun would be illegal because it was a zip gun could be mitigated by manufacturing a cane gun with a serial number, which would be dual purpose, the part about the zip gun goes away. I also feel as though if used for walking, it is a cane, not a weapon in your hand, until you need to use it to protect yourself.
    I wonder if a cane gun built before 1899 would be ok.
     
  19. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    Regardless of what you may have heard, "Zip Gun" is defined in Texas Penal Code 46.01.

    Rifling and serial numbers, or lack thereof, have nothing to do with classification as a zip gun. Either the cane was adapted to use as a firearm and the resulting cane gun is a zip gun, or the gun was built to resemble a cane and is an unconcealed firearm in its entirety, regardless of how you are currently using it.

    "Officer, you are incorrect that I have a rifle, as you see I am using it as a walking stick."

    The other avenue would be to think of the cane gun as a long arm to exploit the less restricted open carry, but I think that you'd have a hard time selling law enforcement on the idea that a cane gun is long arm due to the lack of a stock. Thus Texas law regarding open carry of a handgun would be applicable and a holster would be required.

    As a side note, Federally, any cane gun would require a serial number, since it would be an AOW.
     
  20. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

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    No stock? Good point. Just use a crutch instead of a cane, and have an underworld gunsmith make you a takedown that fits in it:
     
  21. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Then find a state legislator and change Texas law to allow entering those prohibited places with a firearm. To allow firearms at a post office you'll need to change federal law.

    I think you don't know the difference between a firearm and brass knuckles (that are not a firearm) in Texas law.;)
     
  22. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    This is a non sequitur. The fact that one particular weapon is unrestricted has no bearing on whether another different type of weapon should be similarly unrestricted.
    If their cane gun was detected, they would be charged and convicted because the evidence would be pretty obvious. The fact that they really need a cane doesn't mean they can carry a firearm disguised as a cane into an area where firearms are restricted.
    Any citizen can have a cane gun as long as they go through the proper procedure to get one and are not prohibited persons. However that doesn't mean they'll be able to carry it anywhere they want to. Brass knuckles have nothing to do with the legality of carrying firearms or owning firearms or owning/carrying disguised firearms.

    Your opinion is interesting, but it has no weight of law.
    No state can do that because it's a federal law that classifies it as an NFA item. But even if it were removed from that classification, it would still be a firearm under TX law and therefore subject to the normal TX restrictions on firearm carry.
    They're illegal because the law says that they're illegal. Maybe that's why they were originally restricted, but at this point, they are illegal because they fit the definition of an illegal item under TX law.
    There's no requirement for personally made firearms to have a serial number under either federal or TX law.
    1. He didn't assume it was a zip gun, he stated that it MIGHT qualify as a zip gun under TX laws.

    2. No, there is nothing in TX law that says a zip gun isn't a zip gun if it has a serial number. What people think about the law doesn't change what it says or how the courts interpret it.
    How people feel or what they think should be legal has no bearing on what the law says or how the courts interpret it.
    Where did you get the number 1899? From federal law relating to firearms. What does that have to do with TX law? Nothing.
     
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  23. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Apples and salmon comparison.

    Maybe in .22lr, but good luck making one in a larger caliber that doesn't scream "something to look at here".
     
  24. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
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  25. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    No, because federal law doesn't consider them a firearm to begin with, either as Title I or Title II.

    Title I
    https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...6af1f4cf&mc=true&node=se27.3.478_111&rgn=div8
    Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.

    Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    Title II
    https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...6af1f4cf&mc=true&node=se27.3.479_111&rgn=div8

    Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

    Antique firearm. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
     
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