Breaking News: SCOTUS rules against Ghost Guns

[General1776]

SCOTUS rules 7-2 in favor of ATF finding that Biden "ghost gun" regulations are consistent with the Gun Control Act.

Thomas and Alito in dissent.



Disappointing, but not surprising after hearing oral arguments.

Supreme Court upholds Biden regulations on 'ghost gun' kits

The decision means the federal government can regulate the easily obtainable gun parts the same way as firearms bought from specialist stores.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[AlexanderA]

This actually can be seen as a positive development. I think the Justices are sending a message of "evenhandedness," clearing the way for a favorable (for gun rights) outcome in the important cases concerning AWB's and magazines.

The "ghost gun" regulations that were upheld focus on "kits" which include unfinished receivers, jigs, and other parts required to complete guns. ("One stop shopping," if you will.) Unfinished receivers, by themselves, are still being sold. And you can buy the jigs and other parts, by themselves. This is a big nothingburger.

 

[General1776]

From what I've read on Twitter:


My summary on the Vanderstok Ruling:

Bad Things:
- All-in-one kits need serial numbers, background checks

- Polymer 80 frames (and things as easy to complete as them) need serial numbers, background checks

- ATF retains their new, rule-endorsed ability to come up with arbitrary decisions about what is and isn't a firearm (this wasn't really challenged by plaintiffs)

Good Things:
- This has no bearing on your ability to make guns yourself. You don't have to put serial numbers on your stuff. "Ghost guns" are not banned.

- AR15 80s are unaffected (at least for now)

- Flats, blanks, tubes, forgings, etc are all unaffected

- Court does not endorse the "8 hours in a machine shop" test, instead pointing to "1 hour, unskilled, with power tools" as being an example that's clearly "readily converted".

 

[Crosshair]

Polymer 80 frames (and things as easy to complete as them) need serial numbers, background checks

My gunsmith friends experience is that Polymer 80 frames are well beyond the abilities of most people. He keeps getting asked to fix their screwups.

 

[GEM]

This is a different takeaway. I think that Alito and Thomas are being marginalized on gun issues. They are not leaders anymore. They are just good for a scorching dissent when a case isn't taken or they lose. Absolutist magic words from Bruen aren't going to cut it. The rest of the pack is more nuanced. So that's probably why we aren't seeing motion on Snopes, etc. To wildly speculate, their personal and family foilbles have weakened their spot as 'elders'. But who knows. As far as this issue, it is another trivial one as long as state AWBs, mag and locale bans stand unchallenged by the highest court.

 

[12Bravo20]

We has an in-depth discussion about the frame and receiver rule when it was first announced. There is not an all out ban on privately manufactured firearms. (PMF's) as mentioned in the court's opinions. So this really does not affect the individual that wants to build their own firearms. The only ones really affected are manufacturers, retailers, and FFL holders and how they have to handle PMF's. The main difference is that you can no longer buy the 80% frame/receiver and associated parts and jigs as a kit.

We do have to admit that the Buy/Build/Shoot kits from Polymer 80 were questionable as far as the laws are concerned since they had everything needed for a complete firearm.

What I don't agree with is how they kept going on about how easy these kits and 80% frames are to finish into complete firearms. Yes some can make one in 20-30 minutes but unless they are mechanically inclined and have prior experience working on Glocks, then there is a good chance that their builds will not function reliably if at all.

There wouldn't be several gun forums dedicate to building 80% firearms or sub sections on big forums like ARFCOM and Glock Talk chocked full of people asking for help getting their self built firearms to function.

I started a thread in the legal section for those that want to discuss the actual legal ramifications and meanings.

 

[AlexanderA]

This is a different takeaway. I think that Alito and Thomas are being marginalized on gun issues. They are not leaders anymore.

They are also the most likely to retire next, and be replaced before the end of Trump's term. That would mean that Trump will have appointed five justices, a majority of the court. If the new ones follow the pattern of Trump's previous appointees, they're all (plus CJ Roberts) going to be centrists on gun issues. Therefore, no earth-shaking pro-2A decisions like Bruen.

Today's makeup of the court is about the best we're going to get for the foreseeable future.

 

[Jeff White]

MASSIVE BREAKING NEWS JUST NOW: SCOTUS DECISION RULES FOR BIDEN'S ATF...

The US Supreme Court issued a 7-2 ruling in favor of the ATF in the Biden Ghost Gun fight. Mark Smith Four Boxes Diner discusses... Opinion: https://www.supr...

youtu.be

Mark Smith's analysis of the decision. Apparently the court left the door open for future challenges...................

 

[ilbob]

The way I see it is this could have gone either way and it just went against us. Its really not a second amendment issue but more about what federal agencies can do and the courts have long tended to give federal agencies a lot of leeway.

Government can never be trusted, so this is a bad ruling in that respect, but it is not something that should be a complete surprise.

 

[s4s4u]

Meh.

 

[WestKentucky]

The flat out truth of it is that the kits were pushing well beyond what was reasonable. Even buying a parts kit, a separate 80% lower, and tools necessary to go from parts to whole from the same spot in the same transaction is somewhat sketchy. It has been shown as fact that some of these kits have been put into micro-factories finishing out guns in bulk for use in gangs and whatnot so I can’t argue too much. I’m surprised it has gone on this long unchecked.

So we lost this one. Big whooptydo over nothing. Maybe we are due for a W on the next one about silencers.

 

[Jeff White]

Ghost guns are a complete nothing burger when it comes to solving crime. In 20 years in law enforcement I am unaware of any crime that was solved by gun trace information. I'm sure it must have happened but for the most part it's an exercise in futility.

Years ago one of our department's S&W Model 66s was recovered at a crime scene several states away. They had been traded in when the department changed over to semi autos. The trace went from our PD to the distributor we traded them in, to another dealer, to an individual who had reported it stolen a couple years earlier. I really don't know why they bothered with the trace.

 

[Miami_JBT]

MASSIVE BREAKING NEWS JUST NOW: SCOTUS DECISION RULES FOR BIDEN'S ATF...

The US Supreme Court issued a 7-2 ruling in favor of the ATF in the Biden Ghost Gun fight. Mark Smith Four Boxes Diner discusses... Opinion: https://www.supr...

youtu.be

Mark Smith's analysis of the decision. Apparently the court left the door open for future challenges...................

And every time a challenge is brought up, they kick the can down the road by rescheduling the conference or GVR it and then deny or never conference it.

 

[Miami_JBT]

The flat out truth of it is that the kits were pushing well beyond what was reasonable. Even buying a parts kit, a separate 80% lower, and tools necessary to go from parts to whole from the same spot in the same transaction is somewhat sketchy. It has been shown as fact that some of these kits have been put into micro-factories finishing out guns in bulk for use in gangs and whatnot so I can’t argue too much. I’m surprised it has gone on this long unchecked.

So we lost this one. Big whooptydo over nothing. Maybe we are due for a W on the next one about silencers.

Americans should be able to build MGs in their homes from an entire parts kit if they want. Being able to home build firearms is older than the country is

 

[Jeff White]

And every time a challenge is brought up, they kick the can down the road by rescheduling the conference or GVR it and then deny or never conference it.

This case wasn't denied or GVR'd. It was heard and ruled on. However by Smith's analysis it's a very narrow ruling and the court indicated they were open to look at other issues in this case besides what was in the filing.

I have no idea if his analysis is correct.

 

[12Bravo20]

The ruling has not banned home made firearms. This was stated in the USSC Opinion letter that has been linked to. One can still legally make their own firearms at home for personal use. The Frame/Receiver Rule changed how 80% frames and receivers are handled, especially when sold as kits. We can still legally possess any non serialized 80% firearms that we built for our personal use. We just can't buy kits anymore without them being serialized and requiring a NICS check.

The rule concerns manufacturers in that all unfinished AKA 80% frames must now be serialized and transferred as any other firearm. And FFL's can still sell them. The FFL will have to engrave a serial number if it does not already have one before they can sell it.

I have several Polymer 80 frames that I built into complete pistols and I am not breaking any laws or ATF rules by possessing them for my personal use per the ATF frame and receiver rule.

 

[Miami_JBT]

This case wasn't denied or GVR'd. It was heard and ruled on. However by Smith's analysis it's a very narrow ruling and the court indicated they were open to look at other issues in this case besides what was in the filing.

I have no idea if his analysis is correct.

I was talking about the 2A in general.

 

[LiveLife]

This case wasn't denied or GVR'd

From the ruling - https://assets.nationbuilder.com/fi.../1742998466/2025.03.26_OPINION.pdf?1742998466

Before ATF could enforce its rule ... District Court ... vacated the rule. The Fifth Circuit affirmed, holding that §921(a)(3)(A) categorically does not reach weapon parts kits regardless of completeness or ease of assembly, and that §921(a)(3)(B) reaches only finished frames and receivers ...

... reversed and remanded ... Because the court of appeals held otherwise, its judgment is reversed, and the case is remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion

It will be interesting what Trump DOJ/ATF will do now.

 

[JN01]

Also important to note is that this was not a 2A challenge, but based on administrative interpretation of regulations. Heller/Bruen tests did not come in to play.

 

[Basura Blanca]

Disappointing, but not surprising after hearing oral arguments.

Not surprising at all. One of the points raised by the SG (which wasn't adequately addressed by our side) was a rhetorical question about the lack of "kits" offered by big league manufacturers in lieu of their finished products. The point was, a manufacturer like Glock could get behind this trend and skirt a lot of regulation just by offering DIY guns, or something to that effect. Those arguments took the legs out from underneath a lot of the DIY aspect.

What this case really does is illustrate that the other side isn't a bunch of idiots whose only dance move is histrionics.

 

[Basura Blanca]

This is a different takeaway. I think that Alito and Thomas are being marginalized on gun issues. They are not leaders anymore. They are just good for a scorching dissent when a case isn't taken or they lose. Absolutist magic words from Bruen aren't going to cut it. The rest of the pack is more nuanced.

And that's because all of them, not just Trump's picks, were placed on the bench for entirely different reasons not concerning the 2A or guns at all. Their primary purpose is to "safeguard" other sensitive social issues, one big one that starts with letter 'A' in particular.

It's no surprise that this court is lukewarm when it comes to our collective issue, because our collective issue is just peripheral to the conservative cause. It's like we're asking the electricians to do the drywall work. Sure, they're familiar with it, but it's not why they're on the jobsite.

 

[WestKentucky]

Americans should be able to build MGs in their homes from an entire parts kit if they want. Being able to home build firearms is older than the country is

Agreed, but that’s not the law so working within the bounds of the law, we come back to reality. Can’t buy mail order guns, therefore can’t buy a whole kit which can be assembled in a couple hours makes sense.

I do believe that we are innocent until found guilty and our right to happy giggle switches should be intact until we are somehow credibly deemed incapable of possessing such a device. I don’t like being punished as a member of society for the misdeeds of a few, but that’s what the elected idjits have passed as law. Better than other places though, I don’t plan to leave.

 

[skoro]

Seems these "home made" weapons tend to end up in criminal hands. Maybe one of them could be used against me at some point in the future.

I have no issue with the ruling.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Ghost guns are a complete nothing burger when it comes to solving crime. In 20 years in law enforcement I am unaware of any crime that was solved by gun trace information. I'm sure it must have happened but for the most part it's an exercise in futility.

Years ago one of our department's S&W Model 66s was recovered at a crime scene several states away. They had been traded in when the department changed over to semi autos. The trace went from our PD to the distributor we traded them in, to another dealer, to an individual who had reported it stolen a couple years earlier. I really don't know why they bothered with the trace.

That's not a valid argument. Because we don't have a total registration. If each firearm was tracked from build to destruction. It would be the same as running plate numbers.
I will go on the record as completely against this for historical reasons (Australia, Canada, and most European countries) .

 

[Miami_JBT]

Seems these "home made" weapons tend to end up in criminal hands. Maybe one of them could be used against me at some point in the future.

I have no issue with the ruling.

Criminals are criminals because they break the law. Murder, rape, burglary, battery, etc are all crimes. Doesn't stop 'em. They don't care.

Laws only hurt the law-abiding.

Congratulations on disarming yourself just a little bit more.