Brit Rifles From 1880 Massacre Found

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Drizzt

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Brit Rifles From 1880 Massacre Found

June 25, 2008
The Independent

British soldiers serving in Afghanistan have recovered weapons taken from the bodies of their Victorian forebears.

Rare Martini-Henry rifles lost in the bloody defeat at Maiwand in July 1880 have been retrieved 128 years later by troops fighting the Taliban and al-Qa'ida in Helmand province.

Two of the rifles, dated 1874 and 1878, are currently on sale in a Sussex antique shop for 1,100 apiece.

Mark Hawkins, co-owner of The Lanes Armoury, Brighton, said: "When we first fought the Afghans, we kept sending out armies who lost. The Afghans killed our chaps and took their weapons.

"Now British officers are finding these guns, recognise them for what they are, and are getting permission to bring them back. We've had a few through. I think a soldier might pick up a couple, keep one as a souvenir of his time in Afghanistan, and bring the other to us."

Peter Smithurst, senior curator of historic firearms at the Royal Armouries Museum, Leeds, said: "The Martini-Henry was the first purpose-made breech-loading rifle introduced into British service. It is an iconic rifle."

The Martini is particularly popular with collectors, he said, because of both its place in the development of firearms technology and for the role it played in the famous battles of Britain's colonial campaigns.

Smithurst said Afghanistan was increasingly a source of antique firearms. "I have been getting quite a few email inquiries from British servicemen and the American forces as well."

Hawkins said: "The Martini-Henry is a very, very collectable gun - almost entirely down to Michael Caine and the film Zulu. Everyone who has seen that film has seen the Martini-Henry and knows it is the rifle used by the British in that era."

Unlike the successful defence of Rorke's Drift in 1879, as featured in Zulu, the battle of Maiwand a year later was one of the worst British defeats of Queen Victoria's 63-year reign. A 2,500- strong Anglo/Indian force was routed by an Afghan army of about 12,000 men.

Among the 1,000 British and Indian dead were 286 men of the Martini-armed 66th (Berkshire) Regiment, who made a last stand in a walled garden in the village of Khig. When only two officers and nine men of the 66th remained alive, they charged the hordes of tribesmen surrounding them.

An Afghan witness described the end: "These men charged from the shelter of a garden and died with their faces to the enemy. So fierce was their charge, and so brave their actions, no Afghan dared approach to cut them down. Standing in the open, back to back, firing steadily, every shot counting, surrounded by thousands, these British soldiers died. It was not until the last man was shot down that the Afghans dared to advance. The behaviour of those last 11 was the wonder of all who saw it."

The weapons they wielded so gallantly could finally be returning home.
 
When we first fought the Afghans, we kept sending out armies who lost. The Afghans killed our chaps and took their weapons.
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Don't they teach history in military colleges?

These men charged from the shelter of a garden and died with their faces to the enemy. So fierce was their charge, and so brave their actions, no Afghan dared approach to cut them down. Standing in the open, back to back, firing steadily, every shot counting, surrounded by thousands, these British soldiers died. It was not until the last man was shot down that the Afghans dared to advance. The behaviour of those last 11 was the wonder of all who saw it."

How often we substitute the word stupidity with bravery. I guess it makes the living feel better.

Very cool they are allowed to bring them home.

Wonder given British laws how the soldiers get to keep them when given our more liberal gun laws our soldiers can't keep squat?

My feeling has always been if your gonna risk your life in a foreign land at the behest of the CIC, keeping a few spoils of war is a given.
You trust someone enough to send them to kill another, but don't trust them with a few trinkits?
 
Quote:
These men charged from the shelter of a garden and died with their faces to the enemy. So fierce was their charge, and so brave their actions, no Afghan dared approach to cut them down. Standing in the open, back to back, firing steadily, every shot counting, surrounded by thousands, these British soldiers died. It was not until the last man was shot down that the Afghans dared to advance. The behaviour of those last 11 was the wonder of all who saw it."
How often we substitute the word stupidity with bravery. I guess it makes the living feel better.
If this is a refrence to the above tale of how the soldiers died then it sounds like bravery to me as it would be stupidity to surrender they would probably be killed either way. Irwin

p.s looks like Cmdr. Gravez0r beat me to it.
 
I swear they're gonna find Jimmy Hoffa's body over there. The most interesting things keep popping up in either Iraq or Afghanistan.
 
The Martini-Henry, in .577-.450, is considered an antique firearm as the cartridge is obsolete. That means you can buy, sell, import, export etc. without a problem. They're quite popular as collecters items and start at about £500 for the low-quality examples. that usually includes postage to your home via Royal Mail...

Of course, if you want to shoot one you have to go through the rigmerole of a firearms certificate etc. Oh, and there is little choice but to load your own ammo.
 
Two quotes come to mind:

"When death is all that's left, "how" becomes important."

Unknown

"If you're wounded and left on the Afghan plains,
When the women come out to cut up your remains,
Roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your God like a soldier."

Rudyard Kipling
 
How often we substitute the word stupidity with bravery. I guess it makes the living feel better.

While this is in fact axiomatic, in the case above, it's a matter of being dead on your feet or on your knees.
 
What the article fails to mention is that the Pakistan/Afghani area is awash with fake Martini Henry's made by local "gunsmiths." Some of the fakes are now 100 years old, so they can look "right" to the untrained eye. Then again, some are so crude as to be instantly recognizable.

I wonder how many are REAL M-H's and how many are Kyber Pass copies?
 
feedthehogs said:
How often we substitute the word stupidity with bravery. I guess it makes the living feel better.
What a brave comment. I could only hope to die as well as those men.
 
A very interesting read, thank you for posting this.

I agree though, if a place like Britain allows soldiers to bring home firearms... our soldiers should be allowed to bring home firearms as well. *wishful thinking*
 
Mainmech48, you beat me to the appropriate Kipling quote there!!

As to the "stupidity" remark made earlier, there is a huge list of situations that changed history where a group of men decided that how and where they fought (and died if necessary) was critically important. These times and places change history in many cases, such as The Alamo, Camerone, Bastogne, Little Round Top, Rorke's Drift, etc. Sometimes the men won, sometimes they lost. They all had an effect. Sidelines criticism and Monday morning quarterbacking never has an effect. To refer to the sacrifices these men made as stupid shows at best a lack of thought.

The death rate for all men is the same in all places and all times. One man, one death. The "How" of it can mean a great deal...
 
As to the "stupidity" remark made earlier, there is a huge list of situations that changed history where a group of men decided that how and where they fought (and died if necessary) was critically important.

Heh. This was not one of them.

-T
 
good story i would love to see pics of them before the government welds up the barrels. Stupid brits.
The goverment is but as a nation we arnt we invented most of the things everyone takes for granted ie telly, phone,lightbulb,penicillin,computers(be it very basic) radar etc etc Irwin
 
The Afghan and Pakistani tribal areas are some of the oldest settled places in the world.
There is more history in that region of the middle east than in most of the world.

The people of the Khyber pass region have a strong heritage in defeating foreign conquerers, even though most of those conquerers have been more powerful and advanced than them.
The history of them doing so predates Islam/Muslims by almost a thousand years.
Alexander the Great with a much more advanced military than them suffered incredibly there.


Well the British empire was no different.

Today we recognize modern borders drawn on a map, however the people of the region recognize a culture that has different borders that is older than most other nations.


Funny that soldiers who were the military arm of imperialists (empire building) attempting to conquer and enslave a people are considered heros that were "massacred".


This story is just a way to allow looting of people who "stole" british soldiers' weapons over a century ago in combat.


There is weapons of every point in history in that region. From swords to guns. Primarily those taken from foriegn conquerers.

Their economy is also different, so they are hard to conquer economically (most modern conquests are economic ones, using credit, debt, and trade) or militarily.
 
Really? I didn't realize that Ohio was in Britain.

Thomas Edison (light bulb) and Elisha Gray (telephone) were born in Ohio.
 
The goverment is but as a nation we arnt we invented most of the things everyone takes for granted ie telly, phone,lightbulb,penicillin,computers(be it very basic) radar etc etc Irwin

did they also invent gun bans taking away guns from its people. they may have invented some of the things mentioned. It took americans to make them work correctly in the u.s.

IE computers steve jobs, Bill Gates
light bulb thomas edison

we can go on and on and on.
 
I agree though, if a place like Britain allows soldiers to bring home firearms... our soldiers should be allowed to bring home firearms as well. *wishful thinking*

Beg pardon? US troops can bring weapons home, they just have to follow Customs regulations.

In Afghanistan, several bases permit a local Afghan "bazaar" on certain days, and firearms are a very popular souvineer item for US troops. Generally speaking, you can import firearms which are made before 1898 (provided you convince the Customs official), or BP firearms or firearms for "obsolete" cartridges.

You see a ton of Martinis, Berdans, etc. There are also always folks selling SMLEs and Nagants, though the majority of those are post-1898 and cannot be mailed home, which is why tons of offices and barracks have examples of those rifles hanging on the wall (from when Lt Schmuckatelli bought one and had to leave it behind on redeploying).

A ton of the gear is probably fake "Khyber Pass" copies, which is certainly fine for a wall-hanger at the price, and many of them are probably shootable. Some are junky crude copies that look like they were chewed by beavers, others look great. Some folks claim they've found undisputably original examples mixed in with the copies, but I'm dubious.

In any case, point is that dozens of firearms get mailed home from Afghanistan, legally, every week. Not so sure about Iraq, as I never personally knew anyone who did it there, but the organizational culture there is rather different.

I'll attempt to get some bazaar pics of the racks of "coincidentally, this was made in 1897! See the stamp here on the side?" rifles and pistols.
 
When we first fought the Afghans, we kept sending out armies who lost. The Afghans killed our chaps and took their weapons.

The Brits shouldn't have been in Afghanistan in the first place. Why is it that other nations' wealth and natural resources be so tempting to predatory individuals?
 
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