Brits: Welcome to America --now go straight to jail

[UnclePete]

Just my British thoughts on this.

I know that silencers/moderators are subject to controls in the US, the fact is very often mentioned on various forums. It would take a very insular and isolated UK shooter not to be aware of the fact, and I am cynical about this case.

Whatever country you live in you could visit any foreign country and get caught out by local laws. In no cases does ignorance of the law cut any ice.

I am quite sure that UK law in general is much more oppressive than US law, and if I could come around again and choose where I was to be born it would be in the US, which IMHO is still the last best hope of mankind.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

What Art said - hear, hear!

mp510, frankly I find your mindset disgusting and wrong. You can't see the forest for the trees. Just like the Nazis, you feel like the law must be followed to the letter, even if the law is wrong and unconstitutional.

 

[mpmarty]

Following along with this idiocy:

In this case, then the federal and state LEOs should start confiscating all one liter pop bottles. They make excellent "silencers" for .22rf pistols and rifles as long as sub sonic (target type) ammo is used.

 

[damien]

"I will never come back to the United States, ever."

He is right about that. Now he is a U.S. felon. If he tries to come back, it will only result in his arrest.

 

[Odd Job]

I saw a guy use a metal air rifle sound moderator on a Ruger 10/22 and it did indeed muffle the reports of multiple shots.
As for what happened, I think the guys should have had the stuff confiscated or perhaps been fined, not thrown in jail like that. That's very harsh indeed.

But...you have much less room to gripe when you are on someone else's turf.

I don't screw around with US customs / homeland security. It doesn't have to be about firearms components. You take an everyday item like beef spread freely available here in the UK, and they can whack you for a $10,000 fine for bringing that into the US undeclared. Of course if you declare it, it gets trashed.

At every border in the world, you will find at one time or another a ****** bag who just wants to make things difficult. He'll be a guy who doesn't give a damn about circumstances, he will follow the law to the letter and make maximum inconvenience for you.

I got fined 75 euros for riding a train in Paris without a ticket, because the entrance of Le Chatelier tube station that I went in had no open ticket booths and the vending machines were all broken. It was approaching 23:30.
When I got stopped at the other end, I got fined because they said that there was another entrance around the block to that station where a guy was on duty and could have sold me a ticket. I said, well, let me buy the ticket now. No way, it was a fine, the maximum they could give me. They wouldn't listen to my story about where I had come from and where I was going.

But that was the law. No ticket = fine. So I paid.
I've seen cases here in London where a foreigner has had the same problem and been allowed to buy the ticket at the destination. I mentioned that to the French official who fined me, but of course she had the perfect answer to that: "Monsieur, you are not in London now, you are in Paris!"

Probably if that happened to me in a major city in the US, it wouldn't stop me going back. As for Paris, that was just one of several unpleasant experiences that have helped me come to the conclusion that it is highly unlikely I'll ever go back there.

 

[Bubba613]

mp510, frankly I find your mindset disgusting and wrong. You can't see the forest for the trees. Just like the Nazis, you feel like the law must be followed to the letter, even if the law is wrong and unconstitutional.

Paging Mr. Godwin. Paging Mr Godwin.

 

[gc70]

a woman that is a nobody trying to be somebody

This probably improved Ms. Assistant U.S. Attorney Barbara Kocher's stats and increased her league standing in the U.S. Attorney's office. A bit of inconvenience to a couple of foreigners is nothing compared to advancing a legal career and future political opportunities.

 

[akodo]

but i don´t wanna be under a prosecution, that
cannot differentiate between good people and gangsters.

I disagree. The law should treat everyone equally. Just because you go to church every sunday, and then you shoplift a new pair of shoes you shouldn't be treated any different than the baggy pants highschool dropout hip-hopster who does the same thing.

the "LAW" always seems to be a dictatorship of regulations,
when you look at how it is handled in the US.

Law should be about the regulations, but the idea is the Judge or Jury will recognize mitigating circumstances, and take a larger view, and temper blind obediance of the rules with wisdom to arrive at Justice.

Clearly, these guys could have been charged more harshly using a very strict reading of the law. They should be thankful the Judge saw beyond a very stupid law. Now, lets get rid of that stupid law for the rest of us.

However, I am glad that beyond judge and jury, the RULES and REGULATIONS were followed with blind obedience.

See, the highest and mightiest here isn't a King or Queen, it is a SET OF RULES.

Now, the real problem here is the system was working rather well up until this part after a judge ordered them released on bond, immigration officials stepped in with an order to keep them locked up, superceding the judge.

The judge and or jury is supposed to be the ones who temper blind obedience to the rules with wisdom, compassion, whatever. If they are being overruled by other officials, then that is the problem.

 

[kurtmax]

Airgun silencers aren't NFA weapons. Just make sure they can't be used to suppress a firearm (good luck!).

 

[barman]

What a horror story.

I hate that "follow the letter of the law" bull****.

That's a MAJOR difference between Europe and the US:
In Europe (in general), people are concerned with the "spirit" of the law, not the letter of it.
When you go to Law school, you are taught that a judge should always condemn someone with a "trembling" hand.
Agreed, NO ONE must ignore the Law, but common sense must prevail over it.
That's the way I look at things.

I got once got fined in San Francisco by a cop riding a bike because I jaywalked in f****** Height Ashbury.
You can bet your ass I never paid that damn fine.
It happened the day prior to when I went back home (in France).

 

[Thin Black Line]

OK, now I'm confused

I just picked up the Jan 2009 American Rifleman and there is a two page
ad for a Gamo "Whisper" air rifle which has a "noise dampener" which
"reduces sound up to 52%".

How is this different from what these guys had?

 

[mp510]

I got once got fined in San Francisco by a cop riding a bike because I jaywalked in f****** Height Ashbury.
You can bet your ass I never paid that damn fine.
It happened the day prior to when I went back home (in France).

There is a decent likliehood that there is (or will be) a warrant for your arrest in California now Congratulations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just picked up the Jan 2009 American Rifleman and there is a two page
ad for a Gamo "Whisper" air rifle which has a "noise dampener" which
"reduces sound up to 52%".

How is this different from what these guys had?

That is an integral air gun suppressor that ATF approved as not usable with a firearm.

 

[JohnBT]

"Airgun silencers aren't NFA weapons."

I read some ATF rulings last night, as well as some heated discussions on airgun boards about what is or isn't a silencer.

One ruling that sticks in my mind was about a silencer, a removeable silencer, that was designed just for airguns and used fabric packing that wouldn't hold up to "real gun" usage. The ATF tested it and found that it did in fact work for one shot. Therefore, it was a silencer.

john

 

[subknave]

"The ATF tested it and found that it did in fact work for one shot. "

I can believe that but in general some of the ATFs testing methods leave a lot to be desired. In some cases it has been said that they extremely modified firearms to make them fire more than one shot and prosecuted under the "easily made to fire more than shot" and at one point classified a shoestring as a machinegun when used in a certian manner. Now I believe they have to video all their testing because of questionable methods.

But that isn't the point. Most people bringing in something prohibited would simply have it confiscated and have a good day. These poor guys never even had a chance to explain themselves. If they had been prosecuted the ATF would have had to determine if the items were silencers or not as per the NFA and as far as I know there is no definable standard as in reduces noise by xdb. I am sure if I am wrong about that someone will chime in.

 

[Extreme Edd]

I'm on the state's side.

We have a "manditory" 5 year prison sentance for possesion of a pistol. It never gets used even though it is in law as a minimum.

This law is supposed to be a deterent. If a law is there it should be used. I know that this sounds hard line, but there we go.

Also they imported a fake rolex... thats smart!!!

 

[KBintheSLC]

I have to take a different approach. I think the Brits did a common "leap before looking". I have travled to 5 of the 7 continents, and all I can say is that when you travel into a foreign country, it is your responsibility to know their laws. If I was trying to bring gun accessories of any kind into a foreign country, I would find out if they were legal before I went there. Ignorance of the law is not a legitimate defense. As much as I think the NFA regs are rediculous, they are the law and tourists need to respect the law of the lands they visit. These two just took it for granted that the laws are the same as they are in the UK... too bad for them.

 

[gregormeister]

Can't say I blame the chaps for being angry at us.....

I want to see that all pens, pencils, hair brushes, shoes, rubberbands are illegal.....actually I want all passengers to have to fly nude with straight jackets and blindfolds:banghead:, then I'll feel safe flying.

 

[husbandofaromanian]

OK, now I'm confused

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just picked up the Jan 2009 American Rifleman and there is a two page
ad for a Gamo "Whisper" air rifle which has a "noise dampener" which
"reduces sound up to 52%".

About the Gamo Whisper air rifle, the silencer cannot be removed fromt the air rifle and attached to a firearm. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

I own two silencers and I make it a point to talk about them as much as possible. MOST NON GUN PEOPLE THINK THEY ARE ILLEGAL.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

OK, now I'm confused
I just picked up the Jan 2009 American Rifleman and there is a two page
ad for a Gamo "Whisper" air rifle which has a "noise dampener" which
"reduces sound up to 52%".

How is this different from what these guys had?

its nonremovable from the air rifle

 

[Thin Black Line]

So the major crux of illegal vs legal is detachable versus fixed? The magic
of threads on an AIR-gun? Amazing.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

you are still confused its the absence of threads on the airgun. the suppressor has to remain on the airgun. the cans they brought over could be mounted on a 22 if someone wanted to

 

[Mike OTDP]

Precisely. If you were to silver-solder a supprssor to an air rifle's barrel, you would be OK.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Brits seem to think America has no gun laws, anything goes. Reality check. We have crazy gun laws arbitrarily enforced without rhyme or reason. Mindlessly strict law enforcement breeds contempt for the rule of law, when it ought to be tempered by some sort of a sense of justice and proportionality.

 

[Sommerled]

Maybe this US Attorney was a classmate of Blago. With 200 law schools in the USA now they have to fill the seats. "They sure are cranking out some stupid attorneys". (the previous comment is from a respected judge who is one of my patients). I agree that she was trying to pad her record. Unfortunately, altruism is getting to be a foriegn concept amongst too many US lawyers and it gives the good ones a bad rep. It is sad that there are too many people who just don't care about anyone else but themselves and their own agenda and will trample all over a fellow human being for personal gain.

As an aside, while on a trip to the UK (my favourite foreign country) this past summer, I bought an antique woodworking handplane to take home to add to my collection. It is made of steel and wood and weighs about 5 lbs. I removed the blade and put it in my checked baggage, and put the heavy body of the handplane in my carry-on bag because my suitcase was already at max weight.

The handplane sure set off alarms at Heathrow while going through security and I was pulled aside. The security people felt that this item could be used as a bludgeon of sorts. They were going to confiscate it. Well, the plane, made by Norris of London, is worth $1200, and I was not about to leave it with them. The security staff remained cordial as I went through a couple layers of supervisors pleading my case. Finally, one of their top(?) supervisors came to the scene. He took a quick glance at me, my wife, and the woodworking plane. He asked a few questions then said, "bloody hell, why would anyone buy an expensive antique to use as a weapon? We know what our enemies look like". Then he let me go on the airplane. The whole episode took about a half hour and we made our flight. There is reason in some parts of the world.

 

[subknave]

"Precisely. If you were to silver-solder a supprssor to an air rifle's barrel, you would be OK."


Yes but where would you get it from? Wouldn't you be in violation of the law by simply having the suppressor unattached to a gun and who would go through all the paperwork and taxes for a suppressor to fit a airgun?

Thats my biggest beef with laws that punish possession. If I have an anti-tank rifle in my possession who is that harming. If I use it to shoot someones car then throw me in jail.

I think a criminal law should be about a action against someones person or property.
Traffic laws are a bit different as their purpose is to maintain a orderly flow of traffic as tax laws are for the purpose of collecting revenue. Everytime I read about somebody being thrown in jail because they had the materials to do something illegal it makes my blood boil. In my home I probably have the materials to make meth or a silencer and you can make a silencer out of parts from your car or a soda bottle so should we throw everyone in jail because they MIGHT make something against the law. I heard of a case where a man was arrested because he had some smoke grenades, some inert grenades, and some gunpowder at his home. The ATF said he could have made a hand grenade from the inert grenades, gunpowder and fuses from the smoke grenades. I'll try to find that story but it appears I have gone off on a tangent. Sorry about that.