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buckshot vs buckshot

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by 357smallbore, Nov 30, 2019.

  1. 357smallbore

    357smallbore Member

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    I use #1 and #4 buckshot in my home defense shotgun. Use to have 00 stoked and ready to go. But I feel the #1 and #4 would be a better choice in an confined area like a home.
    Anyone feel the same or do you go with something else.
     
    DocRock likes this.
  2. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

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    00 here. I have worked the patterns, and know the round and where it shoots. As importantly, I know the angles and neighbors - sort of a shooting lane. Know the target and what is beyond....

    edit - correct spelling
     
    red rick likes this.
  3. DDDWho

    DDDWho Member

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    0 buckshot 12 pellets at .32" OD ... 00 buckshot 9 pellets at .33" OD

    I chose 0 buckshot loaded in my HD shotgun
     
  4. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    I have recently switched from 00 to #4 buck in my HD shotgun setup. Mostly because the #4 I have on hand has less recoil and I am running low on 00 buck and will need to get some more. Pattern is very similar at defense distances. I have no ways to test penetration.
     
  5. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    Where we live, there aren't any neighbors close or I could use a 300 win mag without any concerns about the neighbors.

    AFA. home defense. any 12 gauge shotgun, no matter what the choke wouldn't open up muck at the distances inside the house.


    shotgun choke.jpg

    IMO. any shotgun choke would do just fine at the distances I'd use it.

    Basically, I have a pistol and an AK-47. AK-74 or an AR by the bed.


    .
     
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  6. dfariswheel

    dfariswheel Member

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    Experts say that #1 buck is ballistically the best.
    It gives more shot in the air to get a better chance of hits and does more tissue damage over a wide area then 00, and it gives better penetration then #4.
     
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  7. Blue Brick

    Blue Brick Member

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    # 4 Buck.
     
  8. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    #4. If Capstick used it to follow up lions, it ought to work on slimeballs across the room.
     
  9. Meeks36

    Meeks36 Member

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    Use #4 home defense, 00 hunting.
     
  10. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    Gus Cotey, Jr. authored an article about a study on buckshot sizes in the IWBA journal (of Dr. Martin Fackler). His summary was, "Based on the factors of number of pellets per unit of weight, capacity to achieve adequate penetration, and the volume of tissue disrupted per unit of pellet mass, the data indicate that No. 1 buckshot has the greatest potential of all buckshot sizes loaded in American 12 gauge shotshells for effective close range performance on human assailants and game of similar size."

    Notice that he described #1 as having the "greatest potential." The thing that was missing and I believe is still missing is a factory loaded cartridge that brings all the necessary features to exploit the potential of #1. The market and factory ammunition seem to overwhelmingly favor 00.

    Some of the key factors for effective buckshot loads for "tactical" purposes include things like:
    extra hard, copper plated shot to avoid excessive deformation
    shot cups and compressible wads like Federal's "Flight Control"
    Shot buffers

    In addition to those features, the loads should have nominal muzzle velocities around 1075 fps, not over 1200 fps for 16 pellet #1 loads. High recoil buckshot loads are very damaging to shooter performance, and the extra velocity doesn't improve effective range or terminal performance. Instead, it often deforms pellets, opens patterns, and reduces penetration.

    There are many #4 buckshot loads that do not meet the 12" penetration standard that is popular. The low sectional density of the small pellets, combined with deformation of soft pellets at high velocities (like 1350 fps) result in poor penetration. If you do use #4, it's advisable to make sure the particular load you use will penetrate.

    Most 00 loads will penetrate, maybe over-penetrate and there is an opportunity to "optimize" the load for better performance by reducing shot size to obtain "adequate" penetration with greater pellet count and less recoil, hence the attraction of #1 for example. The problem is you may have to do that optimizing yourself, because Federal, Winchester, and Remington, to my knowledge, have not done it, and probably will never do it since buckshot has fallen so far out of favor with law enforcement, with the 5.56mm carbine taking its place. (that's another issue to itself)
     
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  11. 748

    748 Member

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    Number 4 bird shot is brutal at home defense ranges.
    Test it at the max range it may be used, if it spreads too much from your gun go bigger.
     
  12. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Times have changed, the shotgun may no longer be treated as a "scattergun," we are told we must not shoot if we cannot put all the shot on the opponent.
    The carbine is better for most situations; more tries, less recoil.
    The shotgun's advantages are that it is cheap and unless overdressed with tackytickle gear, is seen as less threatening to the Biden Bunch.
     
  13. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Wounding or lethal abilities is only one part of the equation for HD. We also have to take into account the possibility of over penetration of interior and exterior walls. I think it's more of a balance, and the ideal shot size would best meet both criteria. A homeowner would have to make a determination based on his or her individual surroundings.
     
  14. Nicky Santoro

    Nicky Santoro Member

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    #1 buck.
     
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  15. 94045

    94045 Member

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    The 12 ga uses #1 for home defense. However I would be surprised if #4 failed to penetrate adequately at 10 yards or less. We have to remember that Home Defense at 12' and Police Enforcement at 25 yards may give much different penetration results as the pattern opens up.

    The 1100 LT Youth 20 ga uses #3 because that's what is readily available. What little testing I have done makes me feel penetration is adequate. At 7 yards in a wild pig carcass I got about the same penetration as defensive handgun rounds.

    I have a good friend who's father used a .410 Bore 2.5" 1/2 oz #6 birdshot at 3' in a home defense situation and while it didn't exit (I've been told 2nd hand some of the shot was under the skin on the far side) it certainly stopped the intruder and did a job on his liver and pancreas. This makes me think any size buckshot would be adequate in that situation.
     
  16. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Any 12ga at normal "inside the home/room" ranges of 2-4 yards/max is going to put near the entire cupful of shot -- from buck to bird -- through the target as a single clump slug.

    Don't kid yourself as to either pattern dispersion or wall penetration -- irrespective of shot size or choke.
    See (verified)

    also:
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
    BlueHeelerFl likes this.
  17. 40-82

    40-82 Member

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    I'm hardly anybody's expert, but I've killed two black bears at under twenty feet with No. 1 Buck in the face. They wilted so instantly that a follow-up wasn't necessary.

    You want to pattern your individual gun, but in a lot of cases you're going to like the No. 1 Buck. A shotgun with buckshot is at its best at ranges where you're trying to keep stuff off you. Reaching out to a distance where you start only scoring hits with individual pellets and you're going to be disappointed.

    For true close work, it's hard to say enough good stuff about No. 4 Buck or BB's.
     
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  18. John Joseph

    John Joseph Member

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    IMHO, this is splitting hairs.
    Any Buck at close range should anchor a BG.
    Time & money is better spent on the range and/or at the pattern board with your personal shotgun for the best return on your ammo investment.
     
  19. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    I like his books. I also don’t believe he ever let truth get in the way of a good story.
     
  20. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    It can fail to adequately penetrate ordnance gelatin at 1350 fps. That is the muzzle velocity of some loads.

    4buck.jpg


    Federal's "Power Shok" #4 Buck load has a muzzle velocity like that could fail the standard for defensive use.

    Federal sells a different load for personal defense with an 1100 fps muzzle velocity. It should have less recoil and more importantly, less pellet deformation and therefore better penetration, but there are other factors that matter like the cup design, shot buffer, and shot plating and how thick it is. I have not tested it or seen it tested.
     
  21. 94045

    94045 Member

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    Not enough info. At how many feet from the muzzle? It makes a great deal of difference whether the pattern has spread to 2" or 18". As I've stated I haven't done any testing of #4 12 ga but #3 20 ga does just fine at 20' or less. I don't usely use gel. Im happy using feral pigs as a substitute.
     
  22. 94045

    94045 Member

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    Not enough info. What was the pattern size. If it's to scale it looks like approximately 3". Considering the results I got from 20 pellet.#3 20 ga (roughly 4" pattern) in pig carcasses I'm surprised it only penetrated 10.6" if that's to scale.
     
  23. 94045

    94045 Member

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    Double Post
     
  24. whatnickname

    whatnickname Member

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    Tactical 00 Buckshot...no Grex buffer, no wad column. Only two brands on the market today that I am aware of. Sellier & Bellot and Estate. Both are reduced recoil rounds making follow up shots easier to get back on target. Fire one of these and you’re sending bare Buckshot down your barrel. It will lead significantly. All of the hunting Buckshot loads are buffered and designed to throw tight patterns. Even some of the stuff sold as Military Buckshot is buffered. At the range that a civilian would likely use a shotgun defensively a buffered load, even in a cylinder bore, throws a very tight pattern. The patterns thrown with Estate and Sellier & Bellot are lousy but wider.

    As far as the size of Buckshot goes, two veteran police officers (friends) recommend 00 Buckshot. A hit from one of these rounds on any part of the body is almost always fatal according to what these police officers have shared with me. I have two tactical shotguns placed strategically in my house. A Mossberg 930 and a Remington 1187 Police model. Both guns are equipped with +2 magazine extensions and TLR2 Stream lights. With one round in the chamber and 6 more in the magazine I can dump all 7 rounds on target in a matter of seconds.
     
  25. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    The size of the pattern is illustrated with the scale given. It was about a 7cm pattern. Practically speaking, the entire pattern hit a gel block, and we can be fairly certain nobody made a gigantic block of gel for no apparent reason. Also, Dr. Fackler's "wound profile" illustrations are just that and not photographs because they are intended to be representative of the repeatable results of many tests with the specified criteria.

    The purpose of the illustration isn't to indicate that selecting #4 Buckshot will result in inadequate penetration. The purpose is to show that there are other factors that affect performance and they are only ignored to our peril. In essence, what Fackler was illustrating here was "how to make #4 Buckshot fail." Does it always fail? Certainly not. But just because a person selects #4, or any other shot size, does not mean they've selected an effective load.
     
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