Quantcast

Bug out bag questions

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Balrog, Apr 14, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Balrog

    Balrog Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,706
    I have looked at some of the BoB threads here, and it seems to me that a lot of people are including things that might be useful if they were in a wilderness setting, but for most people trying to evacuate an urban area, are those items really useful, or will they just be dead weight?

    For example, does one really need fishing line, fishing hooks, a saw, signal mirror, and other wilderness survival gear? It seems like a lot of people are not really planning for the type of evacuation that is most likely.

    Also many people recommend carrying a lot of ammo. I can't really see why I would need 10 spare loaded mags for my AR. To my knowledge, there has not been a single person since the Civil War that would needed that much ammo during a disaster, and that would include the Watts riots of the 70s, Rodney King riots, Katrina, etc.

    For a temporary evacuation, it would seem to me that a lot of those items could be dropped, and the load lightened.
     
  2. uspJ

    uspJ Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2009
    Messages:
    603
    Location:
    Georgia
    Balrog

    You've got the right idea as far as your BoB goes, it needs to be tailored to your needs and that depends on where you live the circumstances that made you bug out to begin with.

    As far as carrying tons of ammo and long guns isn't practical imho. I feel you'd be better suited keeping Your ccw on you and a few spare mags in your bag. I think it would be easier to blend in and not be as conspicuous if you were forced to move on foot not to mention the weight you would save.

    If you plan on bugging out to a rural area then prepare for that if you plan to move to a populated area where critical services might be rendered faster than plan for that. One thing i would highly recommend is keeping a month supply of any prescription medicine you have in you bob and rotate it regularly to keep it fresh.

    You may want to take a look at http://www.whenshtf.com/ If you haven't before. They have a lot of different subforums about things you may not have considered and different aspects of preparedness and survival.
     
  3. Crawford

    Crawford Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    39
    Location:
    West Virginia
    The first thing you have to decide is why you will be buggin' out! Is it to get away from a localized natural disaster, local riots/insurgency, or something more general such as total infrastructure collapse. How long will you be gone (days, years, forever)? Where will you be going? Will there be any facilities for food, clothing and shelter available when you get there, or, will you have to become totally self sufficient, build a cabin and raise you own food for years of posibly forever?

    Until you answer those questions and know what you are planing for, how do you know what you will need?
     
  4. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,703
    Location:
    Arlington, Republic of Texas
    Balrog: You're right. Some of the BOB ideas on here are laughable. Most seem to think that when evacuating a civilized area, they are going to head to the hills and live off the land. Quite frankly, that's one of the stupidest ideas ever.

    Your primary goal should be getting from affected urban zone to a non affected urban zone. If facing a disaster or an evacuation in your area, what you actually need is pretty simple. A vehicle, lots of gas for said vehicle, lots of cash, multiple IDs, water and your CCW handgun, maybe 1 or 2 extra reloads. Never mind the fact that living off the land is a lot harder for even grown men to do, who here is confident that your wife or kids are going to be willing or able to eat cold fish and berries and live in the rain or snow when there a probably hotels a few dozen miles away you can be in?

    Let's be serious here. If your town is threatened by a natural disaster, riots, whatever---get out of town and go someplace (another city) that is not affected. Plan your BOB for THAT goal. Not trying to live out some "My Side of the Mountain" fantasy.
     
  5. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    53,599
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    Most people don't understand the purpose of a BOB is to allow you to get from where things are bad to where you can survive on the longer term. That may be to a minimally affected area or to a supply cache. That should be within 3 days movement simply because you can't carry enough supplies around for more than 3 days due to size/weight limits and you can usually get to an unaffected area or a supply cache in that amount of time.

    Most folks are just too lazy to look beyond the great depth of material out there for SERE or wilderness survival and plan what they would need to carry every day to and from the office to get home or to a preplanned meeting point for their family.
     
  6. Crawford

    Crawford Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    39
    Location:
    West Virginia
    hso said: "Most people don't understand the purpose of a BOB is to allow you to get from where things are bad to where you can survive on the longer term. That may be to a minimally affected area or to a supply cache. That should be within 3 days movement simply because you can't carry enough supplies around for more than 3 days due to size/weight limits and you can usually get to an unaffected area or a supply cache in that amount of time."

    That's all great if you can afford to own and stock a remote survival cache. But, I'm afraid most of us are stuck with counting on out-of-town family/friends and what we can store in their/our garages. If you don't have access to a remote survival cache, the requirements of the BOB become somewhat more involved. Or, maybe the BOB is (or becomes) just what you carry in your car in order to get home safely to plan your full exit.
     
  7. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    21,218
    Location:
    AL, NC
    Folks,

    Keep this on topic for S&T, or it's gone. That means no SHTF/TEOTWAWKI. Getting out of Dodge ahead of fires, hurricanes, evacuating or getting by after earthquakes etc. are on topic for S&T- zombies and SHTF are not.

    lpl (yeah, ima grouch :D)
     
  8. auschip

    auschip Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2003
    Messages:
    1,032
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    One thing that always puzzled me was this idea that people would bug out to the country and live off the land. Unless you own that slice of country, I wouldn't anticipate just setting up shop.

    I keep a couple days worth of food in a tub in the garage. Keeps the mice out, and if I do need to leave my house I can easily throw it in the back of the truck. I don't anticipate having to walk anywhere, and with my wife wouldn't even attempt it.
     
  9. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    53,599
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    Much more the idea. What do I carry so I can get from where I work to home is I can't drive?

    There's no point in trying to carry every day the supplies for a 3 week backpacking trip or the resources to live off the land.

    You're caught away from home or having to get out immediately. What do you carry to allow you to get where things are safe enough to catch your breath and make your next move.

    This doesn't permit you to carry arms and ammo for a siege. It means you find yourself on your office floor or wake up from a sound sleep and have to get out right away. What do you have in a bag that you can carry that will let you get somewhere safer? Unrealistic loads are...unrealistic.
     
  10. dovedescending

    dovedescending Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    575
    Location:
    NW Georgia
    I'm thinking that a BOB is pretty much like the bag you pack when you're wife is expecting... snacks, change of clothes, etc. Is it unreasonable to say that since I have a wife and infant child, there should be a BOB for each of us? (A diaper bag already being kindof a BOB anyway...)
     
  11. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    53,599
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    BOB per person

    Think about needing meds, ID, all the things you'd need for a emergency 3 day trip.
     
  12. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    5,365
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    I think many people grossly overestimate the amount of weight they can carry for a few days of moving over large distances, and grossly overestimate the amount of ammo they will need.

    Keep in mind that:
    1) You are not likely going to be engaged in a sustained firefight. You are a refugee fleeing a dangerous area, likely due to some natural disaster or terrorist attack or civil unrest. I would venture that most people will never be involved in a gunfight, and if so would likely fire very few rounds.

    2) You need water, clean water, first and foremost. You cannot live or operate without water.

    3) Next you need food - high carbs and proteins.

    4) Finally, for the unfit, you should focus on keeping your BOB under 20 lbs. For the moderately fit, keep it under 30 lbs. For the very fit, keep it under 60 lbs. That would allow you to move, reasonably, 20 miles on foot per day over average paved/dirt roadways. These weight restrictions make you have to choose very carefully about what you can bring and must leave behind. Ounces equal pounds and weight adds up fast. As a Soldier, I know how quickly weight adds up. Believe me I've hiked/rucked with combat loads over my share of distances and it's not easy and you must make hard choices about what to leave behind.


    So - in reality - you need water, water and then more water. You also need maps, a light, rain poncho to stay dry or use as shelter, matches/lighter, (cold weather clothes as needed), change of undergarments, firearm and modest extra ammo, multitool, thumbdrive with important documents (copy of important licenses such as drivers license, CCW permit, birth certificate, insurance cards, etc.), and as much cash as you can spare in small bills like $5 dollars bills, and a couple Mountain house or MREs, or some high energy snacks like nuts, protein bars, etc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2010
  13. ilikepancakes

    ilikepancakes Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    145
    My "bag" is the same thing I take hunting in case I get lost and have to camp out a couple days. Lighter, matches, candle, twine, compass, knife, pen, pencil, enough toilet paper for one bathroom break, a snickers bar, space blanket, ten bucks. There are some other things in there too, I just can't remember it all off the top of my head. This all is crammed into a pouch about half the size of a fanny pack. It's not enough to live off on its own, but if I'm going camping I pack for camping. This is just enough to keep my from dying long enough to find/make shelter and sustenance. That's my take on it. Realistically there's no need for any weapon beyond my hunting rifle or CCW as far as survival is concerned.
     
  14. MarineOne

    MarineOne Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2009
    Messages:
    361
    I agree with you, to a point.

    You need to tailor your bag for the area you live in. For example, I live in what most would consider the metro area of Boise (I'm 25 minutes to the airport, but not in Boise city limits) so my bag is setup for my area. I'm not going to "live off the land" but I will supplement what I have with what I can find, like fish, so I have everything but a fishing pole .... which can be had quickly from a small Aspen or other small sapplings. I have a couple Power Bars, a small first aid kit, enough fishing gear to fashion together a fishing pole, Pur water purification system (the handheld pump with extra filters) and some other odds and ends. My bag setup won't work for someone, say in Arizona, because its a different climate.

    I haven't lately due to being overseas for work, but I usually go on a once a year weekend camping trip up near Yellowpine and Warm Lake, in central Idaho. I recommend you make a trip like this and spend about 4 days roughing it to *really* figure out what you need and what you don't.



    -K
     
  15. Ed Harris

    Ed Harris Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Messages:
    247
    Location:
    Almost Heaven
    The Evacuate or Stay Decision

    If you are going to evacuate and not shelter in place you must do so early, be decisive and ACT promptly on that decision. Otherwise you will become entangled with the rest of the general population in an unprepared, mass, spontaneous, chaotic movement.

    You need to have at least "Plan B" for the worst case evac transportation in case using your primary vehicle is not an option.

    - Survival ruck, water containers and mountain bike

    Evacuation route selection if driving is particularly important

    * Leave early
    * Stay off the main roads.

    Government evacuation plans for all major cities will Control the Entry Points
    and Restrict Contraflow to the established evacuation routes.

    Consider:

    - Private Airstrips
    - State Secondary & County Routes

    Route Issues:

    Sufficient Early Warning, get going ASAP to jump-start ahead of the traffic flow.

    Accessibility - large “bug-out” vehicle is handicap on crowded roads

    Fuel supply - Limited Assets $$

    - Carrying Capacity

    - Re-fuel in route or carry with you?

    - Large BOV uses more fuel, which may be expensive / scarce in an emergency.

    - Don't plan on fuel being available en route

    - In normal times always keep your gas tank at least half full

    - Upon change from event watch to warning conserve fuel, keep tank ¾ full

    - Carry extra fuel containers outside the vehicle

    Traffic Control - Choke Points

    - Breakdowns - dealing with yours, moving around theirs

    - Accidents - ditto. Bike is the backup plan.

    - Traffic Flow

    Time of Year/Weather/Terrain

    Make sure your vehicle can carry the essentials.

    Evacuate or Stay? – Do you have a plan that will work?

    Where will you go?

    Is it safe to travel?

    Is the route secure? Can you REALLY get there?

    Do you have enough resources to make relocation work after you get there?

    - pre-positioned caches along bike route located off-road near overnight bivouac points

    Electronic transactions, account verifications may be impossible

    Evacuate with enough cash for at least two weeks of essentials

    Carry account numbers, contact addresses and telephone numbers for all important persons and institutions

    A pre-occupation with weapons and ammo is the very least of your problems.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2010
  16. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,703
    Location:
    Arlington, Republic of Texas
    Let me ask this. All of us who have BOBs, how much cash do you keep in it? Cash for hotels in another city for you and the family, cash for gas, cash for food, cash for palm greasing if it really comes down to that. I hope a lot of you are single, or have raised you family in a log cabin and are posting on THR with a remote satellite connection. Are your children going to be willing and capable of living in the woods off of train mix and fish, when there is a hotel and a Denny's 50 miles away in another city?

    Now if you really do live out in the wilderness, then yes, living off the land is going to play a bigger role. But in all seriousness, please, for your own sake and that of your children, let's all think about this stuff without any fantasy elements in mind. Really look at your life, what you really know how to do (as in you've cleaned a fish a hundred times, not "I have a little survival book that talks about it"), what you wife and kids know how to do, and what they are willing to put up with.

    I'm not trying to sounds sexist, and I know a lot of you have introduced your families to shooting and the like. But there is a big difference between a couple of guys heading out into the woods and being able to tough it out, and a guy, his middle aged wife, and their two preteen daughters doing the same. Do any of you have babies? Have you considered what not being close to a heated indoor area will do to a baby? I don't want to sound combative here, but these are serious questions that need to be thought of.

    I live in Michigan, and we do sometimes have blizzards and tornadoes. If my destroyed by a tornado, I would not grab my Army gear, my AR and head out to hunt and fish. I would put two 5gal gas cans in my trunk, and grab my BOB which is in my gun safe. Why is it in my safe? Because it contains my Army passport, my civilian passport, birth certificate, spare credit card, a few hundred dollars in cash, 1 gold coin, 2 G19 mags in concealable holders, an older model vehicle-GPS, and a non-tactical looking Leatherman.

    Stuff like a change of clothes, poncho, first aid kit, MREs, water etc are already in the back of my trunk. But not as a BO kit. Just as every day preparation. I change my clothes if it's muddy. I grab an MRE if I forgot a lunch and have to work a 12hr shift. As far as bugging out, food, water, clothing, and first aid are serious things. But I don't have a tent, I don't have fishing gear, I don't plan on bringing a rifle at all. My plan is to make it from my city, to another city, and live in a hotel room and just blend in until it passes over. KISS.
     
  17. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    53,599
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    To be of use a BOB has to be able to be carried with you as you go about your daily routine. No too many people are going to lug a 40 lb pack around day after day much less 60.

    Keep the size and weight down and you'll be able to have it with you when you need it. Perhaps break your load into two units. A small one with the minimum 3 day survival needs that will attach to a larger pack with more extensive "wants".

    As to food, few folks will suffer missing 3 days worth of meals, but no one would tolerate 3 days without water. Remember that a days worth of water will weigh nearly 8 pounds. Perhaps the best "solution" is to combine the two the first day and carry a way to supplement your water supply after that first day on your own. Compact water filtration/treatment may be needed even if water from municipal supplies are available but have to be boiled. Carry some "lifeboat" rations to meet the caloric needs of walking for a couple of days, but you don't need MREs.

    Communications are probably going to be disrupted, but a small FM radio will let you listen to emergency broadcasts and may allow you to avoid traffic choked areas or impassable routes. Take a supplemental charger for your cell phone. The cell systems will be flooded the first day of the disaster or they may be down, but you may get a call through to a long distance contact to let your family know you're ok by day 2 or 3 and you need power on your phone for that.

    A poncho makes a great addition. Modern breathable fabrics are making them obsolete, but you can still get emergency mylar ones and even a cheap coated nylon "backpacking" poncho packs pretty small.

    A pack of baby wipes serves many purposes. You can blow your nose on them, clean your hands, face or a cut, and wipe your bumm. Try that with a pack of "kleenex" or a roll of toilet paper.

    A disposable dust mask is a great addition if you're working in an urban environment and have to face dust/smoke from building collapse and fires during a disaster.

    Multitool with wire cutter and a small fixed blade. Forget the "Rambo" boat anchor blades. Stick with something that you can actually carry. You should be carrying a good quality pocket knife anyway, so the tools are the most important thing the multitool.

    First aid kit should be in a freezer grade ziplock and should be focused on letting you survive anything other than a catastrophic injury. Don't worry about dealing with "boo-boos" either. A few bandaids, some antibiotic that will treat burns also, curlex and steristrips along with few antifever analgesics will do for a minimum kit. Put everything in the ziploc and sit on it and seal it to make it as compact as possible. I fold the flap over and use the blue painter's masking tape to seal them so they don't pop open.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2010
  18. Marlin 45 carbine

    Marlin 45 carbine Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,477
    Location:
    South-Western North Carolina
    even if only preparing for 3 days a length of para cord and another of 40-50 lb test mono weigh little and could come in very handy. a 8X10 or so poly tarp is also another item that can be a life-saver. don't forget an eyeglass repair kit or spare contacts.
     
  19. RippinSVT

    RippinSVT Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2008
    Messages:
    319
    Location:
    Missouri
    What about a portable TV? If I missed an episode of The Office, I'd rather be dead.








    Kidding.


    A small can of orange spray-paint would also be helpful. You could start fires with it, use it to signal, mark landmarks in unfamiliar areas, etc.
     
  20. HoosierQ

    HoosierQ Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Location:
    Central Indiana.
    It seems to me the bug out bag concept, while always around, really came to fore with the concurrent events of Katrina and the Iraq war.

    With Katrina, folks really did have to bug out from rising water...and stay out for 6 months some of them. Nobody has a bag for that and probably none of those people lived in the woods. Their bag would need whatever necessary to get to Houston, or Memphis, or Atlanta along with a million other people doing same. Obviously a car is important here.

    In Iraq there were a lot of US Government employees and contractors over there and they needed a bag in case the vehicle they had (or their loggings) was disabled, roadblocked, attacked, or whatever. In Iraq, in 2004, the number of AR mags you'd want would be considerably larger than in Louisiana.

    Me, I am focusing on a bag to to get me home and then throw all my big efforts into being able to shelter in place. In Indiana, we have tornados...that's the big one here. Tornados hit fairly small areas. So my home BOB has cash, scrips (not gonna need more than a few days' meds), ID's and other handy stuff. A tornado is just about the only reasonably likely event that I'll have to bug out of the suburbs for. In the event of a more global or region thing, I am going to want to stay put.

    Oh yeah, and this goes for earthquakes too. I keep a bag of really big heavy tools handy. Hand saw, hatchet, hammer, prybars, entrenching tool, pipe wrench, a big wood chisel, a big cold chisel, and a hydraulic jack. Weighs a ton. Why? Tornado hits, I'll be sheltering in place and if the place comes down on me, I'll have tools to dig out with. Same deal with earthquake (which are rare in Indiana but do happen and are not rare elsewhere). If I lived in the California hills, I'd have the big heavy tool bag for the quake and a fireproof stuff for bugging out ahead of a fire...like a race drivers nomex underwear kind of thing.
     
  21. Balrog

    Balrog Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,706
    When I think about what "bug out" has entailed in the US in my lifetime, it would generally be moving you and your family from your home, to another location at most a couple hundred miles away, because of some type of local disaster, such as a hurricane.

    This scenario presupposes that you are not going to be living off the land, and will be able to find food and water and shelter within a few hours drive of your starting location. I would also assume for sake of discussion that you have the judgement to leave early enough so that you will be able to find supplies (food, water, gas) along the way.

    Does this seem like I have assessed "bug out" correctly? Obviously if I prepare a bug out bag designed for that situation, it won't be much good if we are invaded by China or there is a total simultaneous collapse in civiliation throughout the US.

    With that in mind, here is what it seems to me would be good to have in a bug out bag:

    1. Cash ($1000 or so would cover gas, food, and hotels for a family of 4 for a couple of days) in addition to credit cards. Cash would be preferably to credit cards in some situations, because if phone/electricity/internet are offline, a credit card wont do much good.

    2. Important paperwork, such as insurance policy info, social security card, ID's, birth certificates, bank account information.

    3. Prescription medications

    4. Automobile in good working order, with a spare tire and a jack, and some basic tools in the trunk (screwdriver, pliers, pry bar, hammer, duct tape, etc).

    5. Handgun with no more than 50 rounds of ammo.

    6. pocket knife/multi tool.

    7. something to entertain a kid with so they dont nag the whole way (coloring book, nintendo DS, whatever)

    8. flash light

    9. cigarette lighter/matches (though I am not sure why you would need to start a fire)

    10. Baby wipes or toilet paper

    11. small first aid kit (ibuprofen, betadine, gauze, rolled bandages, tape)

    12. state highway map

    13. list of hotels in your evac city
    What else?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2010
  22. PH/CIB

    PH/CIB Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    158
    Location:
    Iowa
    Spent a year in Nam living most of the time out of a rucksack, drank water from blue lines, streams or rivers with iodine tablets, wish I had my Katadyn water filter back then, food was by helicopter resupply, and carried very heavy packs or rucksacks up and down the mountains of the Central Highlands and in the rice paddies and vills of the flat lands.

    It was brutal for even hardened young men, let alone women and children, and would have been even worse if had to find food and live off the land without helicopter resupply.

    Went without food for three days once during the monsoon season and things were fogged or socked in and air supply could not get to us, it was not fun.

    My bug out bag is the almost the same I carried in Nam with the addition of freeze dried food, I also carry this bag in the winter in the trunk of my car, we have some pretty bad snow and ice and blizzards in Iowa. If it is just a regional disaster and you can drive out, no problem, just pack the car with the family and gear and your bug out bag and leave. If you have to walk out that is a whole different ball game and much tougher that is why having a bug out bag set up for a walk out or a drive out if the car breaks down is good insurance.
     
  23. Balrog

    Balrog Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,706
    I am pretty sure you would need a lot more stuff in Viet Nam than you would be on a 3 day stay at a Hampton Inn that is 200 miles away. Creating a bag to survive Viet Nam is the exact opposite of my intent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2010
  24. Ohio Gun Guy

    Ohio Gun Guy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,472
    Location:
    Central Ohio
    Anyone think about a cart, wagon, or a dolly? If it’s a natural disaster or terrorist attack, you might have someone who is hurt that you can't leave behind. A dolly could help with the weight of supplies and/or someone who can’t walk.

    Plus you could make the kids pull their own stuff :neener:

    I plan more of a Bug-In, but I certainly can't discount all possible scenarios where you may need to leave. I have my stuff in boxes and available, but not in a bag ready to grab in a few seconds.......just dont see that need. (I do keep blankets and water in the car, seasonally adjusted) It would likely take us 30-40 minutes to assemble ourselves and be on our way depending on the Season (Some of you will find that unacceptable).

    As far as guns and ammo go, it will be as much as I think I can haul, via whichever method we are moving.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2010
  25. Chisel Head

    Chisel Head Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    131
    Location:
    Germany
    What's a fishing line weigh and how much space does it take up?
    You might want to prepare 2 or 3 different type bags for differing events.
    A flint igniter is, in any case, indispensible

    Simply set up a bug-out box for extra ammo. During events of massive social unrest/disobedience, it'll be likely difficult to get ammo through conventional avenues, in case one of those bags gets prepared for this purpose.
    In any event, seal your packages air/watertight for burial in remote areas where nobody is likely to build his house there or lay a freeway. Don't bury your excess ammo together with your B.O.B.. Use common sense
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2010
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice