Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Southern Shooter, Jan 31, 2008.
What people? For what reason? Need to be specific.... One box of .30-06 can last 10 years for one person, 10 minutes for another. If you are buying to beat inflation then I would suggest buying several years supply as you can as cheaply as you can in the calibers you shoot most. The prices are seeing appreciation in the triple digit range in the past few years and you won't lose any money on it.
If you are buying as cheap insurance for some kind of disaster then that would depend a whole lot of what you are vulnerable to in your particular area in the world. A lot of 5.56 could be can, a case or a truckload.
I would suggest that you spend money on ammo for now. However much you can carry is all you will have when you bug out. Ammo bought now means you can practice, now and maitain your shooting abilities in the future. FIgure out how much you can or will carry in a bug out situation and always have twice that on hand as a minimum.
Think about, if you are bugging out on foot, which is likely to be more useful a fifth loaded 30 round magazine or a decent water purification system and a couple or four energy bars?
If you have a place you are bugging out to, have more ammo already there and if you do use your mini have a few spare magazines there in case you loose one or three on the long march.
Don't know if .223 is legal in La. but here in FLorida more than a few deer are taken with .223, mostly the 52-55 grain soft points. An aquantence that had proper permiting took nusience dear in a citrus grove using 55 grain M193 hardball and used the heart lung shot and said the four he took never went more than 30 yards and only one at that.
I once had a Grand Uncle by marraige that hunted and took deer and turkey with a .22LR. His son grew up to be come a Game and Fresh water fish officer BTW. Ranges were close and likely over baited feilds as well. He also fished for ducks (and no I will not discuss that but to say animal rights folks would truely freak) and trapped Quail.
As the song goes, a county boy will survive, especially if that country boy needed to feed a family during the depression as Grand Uncle did.
If your Mini was to be the only rifle you have you might consider a Ciener .22LR conversion unit for it. Cheap practice after a few hundered rounds and the option of haivn a .22 rifle and .223 rifle all in one. Barring that you may want to see about getting a "shell shrinker" single shot adaptor with a spare firing pin assembly or two and carrying your Bug Out Mini with a .22LR up the snout for rabbits, squirrels, raccoons, posums, stray dogs or whatever of opertunity. I do not know what sort of accuracy you could expect from your rifle or how yours will handle target (sub sonic) ammo or CBLongs but it will give you an option of a much quieter single shot than firing off a .223. If you suddenly find yourself confronted by raiders or zombies or aliens or Jack booted thugs of the occupying army cycling the action will eject the shell shrinker and load a "real" round of ammo.
Again if you are actually going some place, have .22LR ammo there and a dedicated more accurate .22 Rifle there.
More important than what rifle to take is where are you going and what will you do there.
Roaming around in the woods just ain't going to get it. There are going to be a lot of hungry folks doing the same and a lot of folks that have a place and don't want you in "their" woods. Get friendly with those forth cousins you never see and figure out how you can be of use to them if you show up hungry and armed at their farm. Remember great Aunt Sookie over in Smallville with her little frame house and garden plot, now is a good time for you to get frendly and helpful with Aunt Sookie and maybe hint that if there was trouble in the big city you might come out to live with her just to help her along in her old age (and really do help her now.) Sure your old Service buddy, high school/college buddy, job buddy, former cell mate(I hope not if you are on here) once got drunk and siad "I love you, man!" but does he really love you enough to let you and your hungry kids move in and take food from his kids mouths? FInd out ahead of time and make plans ahead of time. Like help him close in that garage for a game room that later you might be able to live in and help him drive that sand point to get a well with usable water even though is is currently on city water, invest in that old friend ship and make sure that if he is the one that needs to bug out that you can put up his family and feed them a bit.
Rich? Got a vacation home you are headed toward? who will be living there when you arrive and how exactly do you intend to get them out? How about getting someone already close to the site to move in when the SHTF and hold down the fort? Sure you may end up sharing with them and not having all you originally planned on but beats wandering about in the woods all to pieces. You are going to need someone you trust, some one you invested in for that as well.
Lot more to think about than which rifle.
Get good with whatever you have and stay good with it and have the accessories and ammo you need and will carry with that gun.
Have fun and be safe,
It sure will. Try and stockpile some 62gr 5.56 NATO instead of little 55gr .223... it tends to have higher pressures and superior ballistics which would help in taking larger game.
Don't underestimate the Mini-14. It is a very diverse rifle. I personally have an AK-47 for this purpose, but my pops has had a Mini for 15 years and it is fantastic. A 5.56 will easily take a deer with a reasonably good shot.
Ammo wise... I keep 1000 rounds of 7.62X39 stockpiled for my AK. Thats almost 5 full, 7 mag battle packs. If I can't get through with that, I doubt anything will save my sorry hide.
Good call. It would be capable of taking a variety of small game, without letting other humans in the area know you are there. Also, you could carry many thousands of rounds of pellets.
The only problem is that it can't double as a bug out gun as the author of this thread requested. Unless of course you are bugging out against actual bugs.
If it's an old milsurp, it's also strong enough to make a good cudgel, spear, walking stick, etc, and probably has a halfway decent sling. It is likely to be heavy, and ammo too (mosin, mauser, SMLE, etc), but unless you are planning on mass combat, one ammo pouch ought to be enough for manstoppers, and two plastic ammo boxes of hunting ammo would be plenty (the 50 round ones, one for gallery loads, one for medium/large game).
get a Saiga x39 sporter and a pair of 30 round Sure Fires.
Stuff the loaded Sure Fires in your sock drawer for a 'rainy day' and learn the rifle with the stock mags.
You'll be all set for just about anything.
If your thinking of hunting or snaring for food, you're going to die. Stock up on the basics (wheat, rice, beans, etc) so you don't have to hunt and use hunting as a supplement.
Wally world sells 525 round bricks of 22lr for ten bucks. Easy to stock up and doesn't take much space. Get a few rifles a good pistol (ruger ss) and your set.
For the bi-peds, nothing says 'I love you' like a good ole double barrel shotgun. It only gets expensive when you get into buck shot or slugs. If your friends are wearing armor, that's something the 223 can take care of.
To answer your question, if I only had one weapon to have in a bug-out-bag, it's be a ruger 6.5" single six in 22lr. You just got to learn to shoot it.
The less complicated something is, the less apt to break. When I say 22lr, I'm talking single shot bolt actions. The ruger ss stands alone. Nothing fancy, just solid and dependable.
I do not believe this. It usually takes time and patience, and sometimes knowledge, to harvest deer.
An HK91 is the next thing to useless for hunting.
If you have one firearm to cover all the bases, make it a .223. The ammo is prevalent, light to carry and will stop almost anything (as has been discussed).
A handgun is a backup weapon. A tool you use to get to your rifle.
i would get a sks or a saiga in 7.62X39
I believe it. I don't know how Bitswap meant it, but I say 'gone' doesn't have to mean hunted. Just that they went elsewhere when all them folks left the cities and tried to move in on them.
Yes it is illegal to use a .22 and/or .223 on deer size game in some locations but not everywhere. If it came between a true emergency or violating a law for using the wrong caliber to take meat to stay alive this has to be a no brainer.
Example: You take a long fall while hunting in the mountians and are in great need of medical help. You can see a rescue party looking for you over on the next mountian using spotlights. There is a state law that prohibits you from firing a rifle after dark in the woods. Should you fire a shot into the air to signal for help or obey the law and hope they find you before you bleed to death.
Considering my first deer was taken with a scoped HK-91, I kinda have to disagree. It was taken at 150-ish yards.
But the rifle is heavy-- and heavier with a scope. The trigger may well be the crappiest trigger ever to be put in a rifle. Years back, I heard it once described as a "cap-gun" trigger. I do not disagree with that assessment.
I guess I am saying that they CAN be a game-taker. After all, I KNOW its been done from experience. But I also know that there are FAR better choices.
The gas block is at the end of the stock and can be identified by the four hex head bolts, two per side. Detailed instructions can be found at:
The long and short of it is that equal pressure from the four bolts and free floating the block/barrel allows the Mini rifle to shoot straight.
As to the HK91 being unsuitable for hunting...WHAT?!?!
The HK 91 is tantamount to being the ultimate hunting rifle, as was outlined in a Guns and Ammo article back in late 1988, especially when your target is dangerous game. Anti gun sentiment aside, the 91 is accurate and dependable and next to impossible to damage in typical hunting scenarios.
.308 is considered to be an excellent all around caliber for hunting and the 91 delivers it, not in a bolt gun, but in semi auto form and with similar accuracy.
Bear hunting with the 91 is a bread and butter match up. Deer/pig hunting in the brush - perfect. What's not to like?
The trigger-- the crappy, crappy, mushy, pull-for-a-mile, strange breaking trigger.
That was my beef with it as a hunting rifle.
Some don't care for the ergonomics, but they really never bothered me as a hunting rifle. After all, once its chambered and up, who really cares where the cocking handle is?
The weight isn't all that great, but none of my hunting rifles are light (because I use military-style rifles.)
+1. A good plan of action will get you farther than lots of ammo.
Maybe under certain conditions that's possible, but it is in no way a good idea to use a varmint caliber, especially an outdated one, to hunt large game. 25-06 is probably the smallest caliber any respectable hunter would use for taking elk, and only with the heaviest of bullets.
As the admin said, 22lr is illegal to hunt deer with. Also, its a bad idea. I don't know what lead anyone to believe it wasn't a bad idea, but youd be better of with a sharp stick and a bale of hay. If you seriously plan on hunting to feed the family, you'd better choose a rifle that's suited for the terrain. High brush and dense forest would be great for a shotgun slug or a lever gun. Also, the maximum point blank range of some .30-30 cartriges with the proper zero can be as far as 220 yards on deer sized game. .223 is sufficient to take a deer, but I'd stick to the heavier bullets, 69gr or more; you'll have fewer problems that way.
This is just me, but if I were planning to make my last stand or didn't know when I'd be able to get components to load again, I'd have around 15,000 rounds for each rifle I owned stored in air/water tight ammo boxes. Besides, would make a great bargaining chip . Also, I wouldn't hold too much faith in 22lr; it's capabilities are very limited, small critters would be the only thing I used it on.
Southern Shooter, There are a lot of "IF" here. I was born and raised in S. La. Killed a bunch of deer with a variety of calibers. Will a 223 kill a deer? Yes. But for a clean kill you need a Central nervous system hit. (head / spine) Want to take a Guess how many deer are taken in Livingston Parish with a spot light and a 22 Mag.? Personally It's not my cup of tea.
IF you want a civilian hunter a 30-30 or 30-06 are your most popular calibers down there. Both will work well for anything in your area. The 30-06 will work for most critters in the lower 48.
If you want a multi roll weapon then I will recommend the 7.62x39 on the lower cost side, and the 308 on the upper side. I've taken several deer with a SKS, and cheap Russian HP's. Ballisticlly it's in the same neighborhood and the 30-30. SKS's can be had for $200.00 and up. A new 30-30 starts a $350.00. But good used ones can be had for much less.
My personal favorite is the 308. I hunted many years with a M1A. I found the full length barrel ungainly in the woods. But man was it ever accurate. Today I have a FAL scout. It handles much better in the woods. I bought a couple civilian hunters in the same caliber, and have never looked back.
So ask your self some questions. Do you want to keep the Mini, and get and additional hunter or multi-roll weapon? Do you want to trade up on the Mini? These are personal choices.
One last thought. The Mini and the M1A are basically the same action. So your muscle memory won't suffer.
You should probably forget the semi-auto rifles.
You have an elaborate club when a vital spring or part breaks.
A more complext machine has more to break.
A bolt action is, IMHO, a better choice.
My difficult decision would be between 22lr and 8mm Mauser.
The 22 probably wins because I can carry more ammo. But I might take both.
And this is coming from a guy who built a lightweight AR that has been extremely durable and reliable. No problems yet.
But how many mosins and mauser are still working great.. with very little maintenance since the 2nd world war? Many......
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