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Build Me a .22LR Precision Bolt Rifle

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Dynasty, Jan 10, 2013.

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  1. MrBorland

    MrBorland Moderator

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    tuj - certainly one couldn't reasonably expect BR scores without BR gear (rifle, rest, ammo), so what would you think would be a good score with a standard sporter rifle & ammo? You've got my curiosity piqued. ;)
     
  2. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    I just saw where tuj is claiming small groups are impossible with a Savage or a CZ. Maybe with you shooting them. I don't shoot USBR50 targets. I do shoot ARA rimfire targets. My best score is 2250 out of 2500. I generally average around 1900. The top BR shooters at my club don't shoot better than 2250 very often.

    You're wrong about Savages and CZ's not being capable of great targets. Will they do it as consistently as a custom built BR rifle? Of course not. They aren't BR rifles. But can you take that BR hunting with you if you want to go? I can certainly take either my Savage or my CZ.

    I get tired of hearing "can't" from certain corners. Believing in yourself is a big part of shooting. In fact it's probably the biggest factor. The Russians did research on the issue and that's what they came up with. The Russians pretty much invented sports science and they used it to achieve great success. So you aren't doing people any favors by telling them they "can't". Yes of course you must master the basics of shooting, a consistent aim, a consistent hold, a consistent trigger pull, and using your head to figure out things like wind and bullet drop. But once those things are learned it will be hard to put them into practice if you think it can't be done with your hardware.

    You haven't shot every CZ or Savage. You don't know what every rifle can do. So don't handicap people before they start by telling them they "can't". It's the people who overcome that word that have shaped this world. I seriously doubt anyone thinks a sporter or ever a varmint rifle can shoot as well as a BR rifle when shooting from a bench. So why spoil people's aim by telling them they "can't" do well? They can and they do. Maybe not every time but you can bet nearly ever BR shooter learned to shoot with a regular rifle. And maybe you think it's best to discourage people from spending what they can and encouraging them to spend 4 times as much (or more) for BR rifle but I don't. You'll just discourage people from ever taking up shooting IMO.
     
  3. tuj

    tuj Member

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    Cee Zee: I never said "small" groups are not possible with CZ or Savage rifles. Both are fine rifles. It depends on what degree of accuracy you are going for. I tried to build a benchrest rifle out of a Savage MKII; it never got accurate enough for me.

    The last thing I am trying to do is discourage anyone from shooting! In fact, I posted a link to a 10-bull target that I encourage and challenge anyone to try.

    We're all shooters here. I have several of the rifles mentioned in this thread and I like them very much, even the Savage MKII; it's a fine rifle.
     
  4. tuj

    tuj Member

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    210/250 would be a very good sporter score IMHO on the USBR50.
     
  5. MrBorland

    MrBorland Moderator

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    pshaw. No problemo*. :cool:









    * I'm kidding of course. Yup, a 210/250 (or 84/100) would be mighty fine. Still, I'll give it a whack. I love a challenge.
     
  6. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    so how is the USBR target scored? That is, does the bullet just have to cut the outside edge? I saw a post about one that had to have the entire hole inside the circle. If you touched the ring, it went to the next lowest value
     
  7. tuj

    tuj Member

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    The USBR is like most shooting targets in that the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt. The only unique thing about the USBR target is that if you obliterate the 10-ring (ie. no part of the ring is visible), you get an 'X' (which counts as 10 but is used to break ties).

    A scoring plug or an 'Eagle Eye' scoring aid or an overlay are very useful when scoring the USBR target.
     
  8. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    Well it seemed as though you were saying it wasn't possible to shoot consistent small groups with those rifles. I would agree they aren't up to what a BR rifle will do but they cost a quarter to a tenth of what a good BR rifle costs. You can get a good Savage for under $300. It's not at all unusual to see people spend well over $3000 on a BR rifle if they pay an expert to build it. I'd certainly like to have one. I actually called a guy to buy one but it was already gone. I still feel like shooting myself over that deal because it was going for an unreal price. But I ended up with another great rifle so I can't complain too much.

    But I still say that a good sporter or varmint rifle is where most people learn to shoot well. They get the accuracy bug from a rifle like that IMO. Few people start out buying a BR rifle. And those CZ and Savage rifles give people accuracy that is uncommon at their price levels. I know there are more accurate rifles around but not rifles you can build for $500 including glass and mounts. I'd say only Savage comes in under $500 these days. It might still be possible to get a Trainer and stay under $500 total for a full setup. But I doubt it. I know it can be done with a Savage. And to be honest my Savage shoots more accurate than my CZ although not by much.

    I just think telling people they will never get to experience true accuracy without buying a BR gun is like telling someone they will never experience real speed unless they buy a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport when they are considering a measley Nissan 370Z. Sure the Bugatti will go 90 mph faster than the Nissan but unless you're Bill Gates or Warren Buffett it's not exactly an affordable car. The Nissan can be bought for a mere $35,000 or so and it will "only" go 175 mph. But like that sporter CZ you can use it as an every day driver while anyone who does that with a Bugatti is asking for problems - expensive problems.

    There's a reason they don't build them all the same friend. And budgets are one of the big reasons.
     
  9. tuj

    tuj Member

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    Hey CeeZee: I started out shooting a 17HMR for group sizes off a bipod. That was my introduction to accurate bench shooting. I was shooting for group sizes and testing different ammos and techniques and generally having a blast.

    But I wanted to see how my shooting really stacked up. So I took up benchrest. I got into the game with a used BR rifle and glass for around $1500, got a cheaper Caldwell 'The Rock' rest, and went shooting!

    Along the way I have had the opportunity to meet numerous BR shooters of all kinds, serious, casual, etc. I have tried to learn from them, and I enjoy competing against them, even if I rarely place; I'm definitely a mid-pack shooter. I was fortunate enough to get my wife interested in rifle shooting, and after she got too good at shooting silhouettes, I moved her on to BR. We built her Kimber 82G up over the last year and tuned it; it will shoot in the high-230's now.

    I agree a BR rifle is not versatile. My BR rifle has a 2oz trigger with zero take-up. It has no safety. I wouldn't even lift it off the bench loaded let alone hunt with it. But then again, hunting isn't really my thing.

    Any of the rifles listed on this thread will be fairly accurate and might be exactly what the OP is looking for; the Savage MKII, the Kimber 82G, the CZ 452 (I've shot all of them and more).

    I'm just offering another path for the OP. If you are an accuracy junky (like me), and you want to truly test yourself and your setup, then IMHO, you have to get into benchrest. Or at least subscribe to Precision Shooting magazine. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  10. Dynasty

    Dynasty Member

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    I'm not looking to purchase a bench rest competition type rifle. I just want something accurate out of the box. I will not be changing stocks or triggers on the rifle. I'm not that particular, guys.

    I'm looking for something I could buy, throw on an optic, and hit beer cans/3"-5"-8"/paper plate targets from 100-300 yards consistently.
     
  11. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    My vote is for a used 500 Remmy bolt rifle. I have a 512 That shoots minute of nickel at 100 yards with bulk Federal ammo.
     
  12. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    After reviewing the links provided by mr revolver guy, it seems the best odds would be a CZ varmint. It is safe to say that accuracy varies by individual rifles and ammo in each rifle. A Savage may outshoot a CZ depending on ammo or some other factor. One of my CZ's usually outshoot the other, my 10/22 with a bull barrel and custom stock is close behind, followed by my Winny 74, Marlin 70. Haven't shot the Kimber. Good luck.
    I sure would enjoy meeting some of you at a range and see what they will do.
     
  13. tuj

    tuj Member

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    A stock 10/22 will do that. As will any of the rifles mentioned in this thread. Nothing about that is 'precision' but hey, we each enjoy shooting in our own ways. Sometimes nothing beats plinking.
     
  14. afponiky

    afponiky Member

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    I've got a 452 for sale, but it has the Klinsky stock along with the Bruno sites. along with all the original stuff.

    Going to be way more than 500, guess it's what your looking at doing and what you want to shoot!



    AF
     
  15. Danny Creasy

    Danny Creasy Member

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    Dynasty, here is a test and write up I did in June 2006:

    I have a CZ and Annie that are set up very similar and I ran them head to head today.

    I intended to do some group shooting and then shoot a USBR target with each rifle - all at 50 yards. Unfortunately, the group shooting took about two and a half hours due to on and off shifty winds and then a big nasty thunderstorm (high winds and lightning) rolled in right in the middle of the first USBR target. So, I am posting the 50 yard group shooting test only.

    I had three Caldwell spinning wind flags up at 3 yards, 25 yards, and 50 yards and I used a Caldwell rest and Caldwell rear bag set on one of our concrete benches (covered firing position).

    The CZ:

    CZ 452 American purchased new in 2004
    Swift 6-18X44 (set on 18 power throughout the test)
    Weight of rifle with the scope mounted is 7 lbs 4 ozs
    Weight of trigger pull = 3 lbs 2 ozs
    This is the rifle I use to shoot in the RFC Online Matches Factory Box Stock Sporter Class - it is a ringer!
    This rifle is box stock. I was very lucky - the trigger has lots of the usual CZ creep but it is relatively light for a CZ 452 and a 3 X 5 index card will pass freely the length of the forend between wood and metal.

    The Anschutz:

    Anschutz 1710 purchased new in 1991 (I think the old box is marked 1712D)
    Swift 6-18X44 (set on 18 thoughout the test)
    Weight of the rifle with the scope mounted is 8 lbs
    Weight of the trigger pull = 2 lbs 4 ozs
    I used the factory adjustment screws to take it to its lightest setting about three years ago. I shoot it occasionally in the RFC Online Matches Unlimited Class and 2BAB Class (to pricey for the Box Stock Sporter Class and the trigger has been adjusted).

    One may question the following, but............

    1. Light shifty winds were present throughout the group testing. But, I think I shot enough to reflect some trends.

    2. I am not the best shot in the world but I think I am a consistent one and I thing I shot enough to reflect some trends.

    3. I shot straight through without cleaning the rifles and the fouling group between each ammo type is marked with an "F". Both rifles were cleaned a couple of weeks ago and they were both fired last weekend and zeroed to shoot just to the right or left of POA at 25 yards with the ammo that I used in the top line of each section. I am glad the POIs were off center because this prevented my POA from getting ruined. I adjusted the AOs for 50 yards before I started shooting.

    4. I ran out of Green Tag. I simply glanced at the long skinny box and thought there was more in there than there really was. The CZ only got eight rounds of Green Tag (I fired the 3 foulers and one group). So, I shot three CCI Blazer groups with each rifle to round out the target and that gave the rifles a low priced ammo test.

    5. I did not have any really high end ammo like TENEX, RWS-R50, or Midas on hand. That would have been a nice addition.

    The format was for the five shot fouler group to be followed by four other five shot groups with each ammo type.

    Steve Van Kauwenbergh, a North Alabama Shooting Association Member and RFC Registered User witnessed the test. I hope Steve made it home safely because the heavy stuff hit just after we locked the gate and headed home.

    Here are the rifles:

    CZandAnnie-1.jpg
    Here is the very busy target:

    DSC01619.jpg

    I am sorry the photography is not better. But, I am still a rookie with a digital camera.

    No "one hole groups all day long" here. But, these rifles are close. Center to center nothing is over an inch (it was 85 degrees with light shifty winds and I know I pulled some shots) and two or three are just a tad over a quarter inch. You draw your own conclusions. I am sure there are some better shots than I and I would love to see them shoot something similar and post a target.

    This is my test. It was fun. No trigger kits, no glass or pillar bedding, no custom work of any kind. Just two factory sporters. One from Anschutz and one from CZ. Imperfect? Yes. Did I learn something? Yes, I will keep them both.

    Dynasty, A CZ 452 American or Savage Mk II should do the trick for you. The Anschutz tested above runs about $1,300 these days. You should be able to pick up a used 452 American for around $300 to $400
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  16. Danny Creasy

    Danny Creasy Member

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    Also, we shoot a local fun match called "The Raptor Match"

    As you can see from my latest match report below, some very humble rifles can perform exceptionally well in good hands even at 90 yards.

    Six shooters and one spectator (my wife aka match photographer ;)) enjoyed a cold, overcast, and windy morning of shooting today.

    DSC04827_zps33afc35c.jpg

    The conditions were as tough as the competition was in today's event. But, we had fun making the little chickens fly at 90 yards.

    Here are some random shots:

    One has a minute to engage five of these from 90 yards with 10 rounds from a standing start:
    DSC03854.jpg
    One's score is the number of birds left standing and the low score wins. Each shooter makes three runs at the little birds.

    Peary uncases his TC Classic.
    DSC04826_zps0a0f0627-1_zps475cb015.jpg

    I shoot some sighters. Didn't even have to remove the turret caps as the zero was still holding from my daughter's use of the rifle in the Speed 90 Match at Thanksgiving.
    DSC04812_zps9cb15215.jpg

    Bill shoots his Ruger 10/22.
    DSC04815_zps02dfa290.jpg

    BJ left one up in the first string. I have done this before and it stings. However, he hung in there and cleaned the next two racks. You never know what little quirk or errant wind might leave the door open for you.
    DSC04818_zps69567213.jpg

    Watching the hits and misses.
    DSC04823_zps6b6dee78.jpg

    The hat and hearing muffs were crimping my style in the sighters, so I decided to just go with ear plugs during the actual match. It was a good decision.
    DSC04824_zpse6f0ff20.jpg

    Keith and I loaded only five rounds instead of ten for the shoot off for first place. He finished before I had even shot my third round. I assumed he had cleaned them and I pressed down for a 5 for 5. As it turned out, I needed it to win. Keith had left one up.
    DSC04825_zpsa4af1235.jpg

    Today's scores:

    Place, Shooter, Rifle, Scope, Ammo, # left standing in 1st Rack, 2nd, 3rd, Total, Tiebreaker

    1st Danny Creasy, CZ 452 American, Simmons Deerfield 4-12X40 AO, CCI Blazer, 0,0,0,0,0
    2nd Keith McBrayer, Ruger 10/22, Barska 6-24, SK Rifle Match, 0,0,0,0,1
    3rd BJ Kavanaugh, Savage Mk II FV, Barska 6-24X42, CCI SV, 1,0,0,1
    4th Peary Willard, TC Classic, Tasco World Class 3-12, Federal 510, 1,0,1,2
    5th Bill Parkhurst, Ruger 10/22, Nikon BuckMaster 6-18X40, CCI SV 2,1,1,4
    6th Mike, Savage Mk II, Bushnell, Federal Auto Match, 3,1,4,8

    Thanks for all the help in running the match fellas and thanks for taking the pics Karen.

    Not sure when or where the next Raptor Match may be, but I know there will be one.
     
  17. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    Does anyone have an actual link to the USBR50 target? It won't be possible to shoot good scores consistently but I'm betting that a sporter or varmint rifle can come up with a decent score fairly often. I'm not saying they can compete with a BR rifle. I know that isn't going to happen. But I've seen very good targets shot on ARA targets. The sample USBR50 target that can be printed on a regular printer would be nice. It's a given that the measurements for the target must be available to print targets on a computer printer though because no two of them seem to print things exactly the same size.

    I have a copy of what is called a USBR-25 target which I assume is 25 targets of the 50 used on the USBR-50 target. I'm certain that was how it was portrayed to me when I downloaded it some time ago. I checked the size of the group needed to get a 10 on every shot for this target and then I did the same for the ARA target. I used OnTarget, the program for calculating group sizes, to do this. What I found was that it is necessary to maintain a group size of .327" to get a perfect score on the USBR target. In order to get a perfect score on the ARA target a person would have to maintain a group size of .233". This is going by what I have heard about the scoring of the USBR target. I'm not all that familiar with that target but what I've heard is that a person gets the best contact score on that target. In other words if you hit the 10 ring at all you get a score of 10 for that shot. I could well be wrong about that. Again I am not that familiar with the target in question. I am familiar with the ARA targets though. I know how they are scored. In fact there is a scoring diagram on every target. So I am quite sure that the group size I listed to get a perfect score on that target is correct.

    What I know is that only a very few people have ever scored perfect on the ARA target. The total number of perfect scores in actual competitions was under a dozen the last time I checked. And one person was responsible for several of those perfect scores including having done it once with a pistol. He's the only person to have done that. I'm not familiar with the USBR targets. Is it common to get a perfect score on that target? I'm not talking all X's. I'm just talking all 10's.

    I don't know how accurate my calculations are for the USBR target, I don't even know the scoring for sure and I don't know what kind of scores are typical for rimfire rifles from 50 yards. I'm just trying to get a handle on this to be honest. What I do know is that I have shot a 2250 with my Savage MkIIBTV on an ARA target. That means I got 20 out of 25 rounds in that .233" group size and kept the other 5 close enough to get a 50. For those that say consistent shooting isn't possible that might mean something. But I can't shoot that well every time. Far from it. I can shoot about a 1900 every time. That puts me with a little over half of my shots in that .233" zone with the rest in a .489" group size, which is what it takes to score a 50. So that looks like an average group size of .361". You'd be amazed how often I've been told that isn't possible but I do it. Or at least I could when I was in practice. I probably need to practice up a little to get back to that level but I could do it within a week if I had good ammo. I've done it for years except during the winters. It gets mighty cold sitting on a bench in the winter around here. :)
     
  18. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    My S-I-L went to their website last night and printed off a dozen sheets. FWIW, the 10 ring is about the diameter of a .22 bullet hole.
     
  19. tuj

    tuj Member

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    Hey CeeZee: When I said the USBR50 target, I meant the 'Green Meanie', 25-bull target as shot from 50 yards. Scoring: if you clip any part of the 10-ring, that's a 10. The 10-ring is actually smaller than a .22 round, so it helps to have a scoring overlay or a plug. I am not sure if the ARA target is harder or not, I have only shot ARA once or twice.

    In our local club, we have never had a perfect 250/250 score on our range in competition. We've had some 247's and 248's with lots of X's, but never a clean target. When I went to the regional competition last year for Texas, no one cleaned a target in competition either.

    If you go on RimfireCentral, they do a match every month for benchrest. In the unlimited class it is still very very rare to see anyone claim they cleaned the target. http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=181

    If you want to buy the USBR targets, I get them from here, they print them on nice heavy paper that makes very clean holes:
    http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/benchrest/
     
  20. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    tuj....I asked before but didn't see an answer. Have you ever tried the Eabco HP tool??

    I was in the LGS today. Found a brick of the Wolf Ultra Match, $7.50/box IIRC. Woo-hoo.
     
  21. tuj

    tuj Member

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    hey redneck, sorry I missed your post.

    I've seen and considered the PACO Accurizing tool which is very similar to the Eabco tool but has 3 different shapes it can imprint on the bullet. Personally when I've talked to other benchresters, they have told me two things:

    1) the Eley EPS bullet that is in the higher grade stuff already has an interesting nose on it that is not typical and is supposedly superior for accuracy, so why mess with it.

    2) It's not so safe to be banging on rimfire rounds...

    I *have* tried several brands of HP rounds, both standard and subsonic in the Kimber 82G trying to find an ammo that my gun likes (this particular one hates Eley).
     
  22. MrBorland

    MrBorland Moderator

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    tuj - I had a chance to shoot that USBR50 target. I used my CZ452 UltraLux with BRNO F/R aperture sights, a Turner sling, shooting prone, CCI SV ammo. Those little circles were impossible to see, so I had to paste some ShootNC's over them.

    I shot a single target, and admit being a little disappointed initially at a score of 72/100 (or 180/250). Not the 80ish I was thinking. I overlaid the target with a 50 yard smallbore target, though, and saw it corresponded to a 98-3x, which is about as good as I've been doing, so I think my USBR50 score is pretty representative.

    I'd like to give it another whirl with my scoped CZ452 Varmint, shooting off a bench with some good bags. Might have to break out the Eley ammo, too. Apples to apples and all that. ;)
     
  23. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    I found this target that I shot. The individual targets are the same size as the ARA targets. I shot this with my Savage MkIIBTV from 50 yards. 25 of these targets would make up an ARA target. But at least you can get an idea what the ARA targets are like and how well the Savage can shoot. I shot this target to send in to Savage because I was having keyhole problems at the time. The holes that are circled in red are the bullets that keyholed on me. I did get that problem worked out but it took a while. It did hurt the accuracy of the rifle some but not a lot. Anyway here's the target. BTW your bullet holes have to be inside the scoring ring to get the higher score. You can touch the lower ring but no more than half ot it the way I read the scoring chart that comes on the ARA target. I can post a copy of that if you're interested. But keep in mind this is a copyrighted target so we can't be printing up targets that are too close to the ARA targets. This target is not a direct copy of the ARA target. There are some key differences. I don't see how they can copyright a circle though. If this were an ARA target I would have hit 10 out of 12 100 point scores with 2 50 point scores for 1100 points out of 1200 possible. Again, the ARA targets have 25 of these targets. And again, the inner ring measures half an inch from the outside of the ink on both sides. So given a .223 bullet hole a group of 100 scores would require a quarter inch groups or just slightly more than a quarter inch group. I would say there are 2 quarter inch groups on this target and 40% of a third one. People never believe me when I say it but this target was not that exceptional. I've shot much better groups than .25" with my Savage.

    BTW when I sent the rifle in for the keyhole problem Savage tested it at 100 yards and shot a .7" group with it at that distance. I have that target too if you'd like to see it. I can probably find a lot of these targets actually. I often saved a copy of anything a quarter inch or better. But I certainly didn't save all my targets that had groups that size. I would have had hundreds of them at least.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  24. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    What was the cause of/solution to the keyhole problem?? I've had it on centerfire, but never rimfire.
     
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