Bulk ammo and the ATF

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Guys I understand the discussion on how to meet and greet; what is proper and legal and what is a perceived reality for others. Many along the border do not want anything to do with some authority figure for what ever reason.

O.K. they come to my house and I meet them with The Constitution in my hand and clothed in a don't tread on me flag..Their response and report will probably indicate the encounter and ?? make up your own happy ending. Cause and effect, anyone?

They come to the door and I am just myself, a licensed responsible CHL holder for the state of Texas who purchased ammo for hunting/training and teaching. I answer their questions and pump them for information; two way street. Their report should indicate the encounter. Their questions got answered. They were sent to my/your residence to ask and get to the bottom of why and when; not their choice just part of their job.

I shoot with Border Patrol, a few ICE, and even a few LEOs who all are just guys trying to do the best they can with what they have to work with. I honestly do not know any jerks in the whole bunch that I have encountered.

So, I can go into a full blown confrontation mode and get one set of results or I can just be myself and see what happens. These are my choices as I see them and may not be for everyone. I doubt I will have company after my order arrives but if I do I know what will be my response.

Hahahah my neighbor is one of the big boys for border patrol but I have not been able to catch him when out and about. I do plan on speaking with him when it appears to be a good time or I catch him outside.

Whew, I am retired; it seems I am busier now than I was when I worked; fighting injustice (in my mind), able to crawl over small barriers at the speed of an old lizard, all for mom and apple pie! Hooo Rah!
 
I get what you're saying about just trying to get along. And you'll have to do whatever you're comfortable doing. However, having your weapon inspected, and answering official questions about your activities IS an imposition. Regardless of wanting to get along with your friends and neighbors, we really do need to be sending the message that it is not ok to go fishing this way.

If your neighbor comes into your house and fondles your stuff whenever he wants, you can decide to overlook that just to get along. But you are absolutely in your rights, and being perfectly proper and polite, to explain that he's crossing a boundary and that is not acceptable.

Now when that "neighbor" is a government agency (or two?) crossing lines that are Constitutionally established? I think it goes far beyond politeness to remind them where their powers end.

If they feel they have a CHARGE to bring against me, that's fine. Let's see it, and let's handle that through official channels. If they're just "checking up"? No, sorry, I just do not wish to go along with that for the sake of niceties.
 
My FEDEX driver blows the horn for me and my handtruck.....he told me a large number of the packages he now delivers is from CTD and other ammo suppliers. There is no law that you need to have a firearm to purchase ammunition. So I question them (ATF) coming and asking to see such weapon without a search warrant. ( I've written a fair amount of search warrants, so I'm familiar with the process)
But if you make threats or suggest illegal activity on you part in any Internet forum, THAT could award you a visit from a member of one of the alphabet Federal agencies.The Feds do occasionally monitor activities on these kinds of forums if they have cause.
 
I get what you're saying about just trying to get along. And you'll have to do whatever you're comfortable doing. However, having your weapon inspected, and answering official questions about your activities IS an imposition. Regardless of wanting to get along with your friends and neighbors, we really do need to be sending the message that it is not OK to go fishing this way.

If your neighbor comes into your house and fondles your stuff whenever he wants, you can decide to overlook that just to get along. But you are absolutely in your rights, and being perfectly proper and polite, to explain that he's crossing a boundary and that is not acceptable.

Now when that "neighbor" is a government agency (or two?) crossing lines that are Constitutionally established? I think it goes far beyond politeness to remind them where their powers end.

If they feel they have a CHARGE to bring against me, that's fine. Let's see it, and let's handle that through official channels. If they're just "checking up"? No, sorry, I just do not wish to go along with that for the sake of niceties.
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Sam of all the older Mods we have you are the one I agree with most often; your responses are well written and researched. I even agree with you in your last post. Not sucking up just stating fact.

I try to chose my battles and if the visits branch out and become a normal procedure around here then when I have my stuff together it will not be to hard to approach this with a united front an actual chance of being heard.

We have a great group of guys around here who will actually stand up against what they believe is not proper conduct by anyone; ways and means of filing appropriate paperwork to get the governing agencies attention. Until it is in writing it is just ranting.

At this stage I have spoken with the LGS and one individual who got the visit. Until I can speak with a few more (there are possibly 3 more) and see for myself what the drill is I am in a holding pattern waiting for clearance to proceed.
 
Now when that "neighbor" is a government agency (or two?) crossing lines that are Constitutionally established? I think it goes far beyond politeness to remind them where their powers end.

If they feel they have a CHARGE to bring against me, that's fine. Let's see it, and let's handle that through official channels. If they're just "checking up"? No, sorry, I just do not wish to go along with that for the sake of niceties.
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Let's say I have a C&R license, does that change where the line is drawn? I think it does move the line, but not very far. (ATF has to make an appointment to inspect my guns and/or my bound book, not just show up unannounced, and then only the guns actually recorded in my book) Even then I don't think I have to let them in the house w/o a warrant; I can bring the stuff out on the porch for them to look at it.
 
There are several who are provacatively anti-government, anti-cooperative, to the point of sounding belligerent. Act that way when they come to your door, and then let us know how it turns out. I am not saying let the agents run over you, but being polite, and firm accomplishs a lot more.
ll
 
Lloveless:

Yes we belong to the government, right. So we should allow them into our homes at the drop a hat....


This thread wont last much longer...
 
Sounds like your LGS owner is trying to scare you away from buying discounted ammo over the Internet.
 
If the group Annonomous can factually determine that the FBI has Apple cell phone tracking data on 12 million Americans that was obtained without obtaining legal search warrants and that the FBI then denies this, why would I question whether the ATF has done this to citizens who purchase ammo legally?
 
My take is that the government is meant to enforce societal (did I get that right :) ) rules via laws...BUT one does not need to follow societal rules when interfacing with them. The law is not up for (much, hopefully) interpretation, but societal rules are. So you put yourself at risk when not following procedure, even though it shows good social behavior.

Sure, I have nothing to hide. I am a good member of society, see?
 
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There are several who are provacatively anti-government, anti-cooperative, to the point of sounding belligerent. Act that way when they come to your door, and then let us know how it turns out. I am not saying let the agents run over you, but being polite, and firm accomplishs a lot more.
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  1. I never opened the door, they didn't kick it in and they left.
  2. I refused to talk to them without a lawyer present. We never talked.
 
I live in TX and order ammo components in bulk, last bullet order was for 20,000 last primer order 40,000. Never had the ATF stop by. Also, I didn't know that you had to own a gun for every round you have.
 
I do have a friend who is on a watch list for buying a bulk purchase of black powder online. He and a few other re-enactors purchased about 20 pounds of black powder at one time to save on shipping and hazmat charges. He also was told by the local ATF special agent that he was now on a watch list, this was also right after the USS Cole bombing a few years ago. He now has a CDL with hazmat, and tanker endorsements, in addition to a CCW permit. I would classify that he is one of the good guys and that if the government had a problem with him he would not have a CDL, much less hazmat and tanker endorsements. (those allowing for a much bigger boom than 20 pounds of black powder to my rough estimation)
 
I like to think I'd have the presence of mind to ask them a few questions before I decided to cooperate or not.
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and there would be no legal requirement for them to truthfully answer your questions

look up the concept of "reasonable deception"

Then stop helping the government violate your rights over their imagined "war on <noun>"
 
But if you make threats or suggest illegal activity on you part in any Internet forum,
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are you implying something was said in this thread or are you just speaking "in general"?

Sounds like your LGS owner is trying to scare you away from buying discounted ammo over the Internet.
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covconv did you read the tread?
 
Since some members have hurt their eyes reading this thread or gotten a head ache with my poor attempt at providing what details that I have; I will ask Sam or someone to close it. When I get further info with something tangible I will post a follow up. For those who provided insight/second hand stories and links I humbly thank you. It has been an educational process for me that has been interesting. Border!
 
I haven't done a bulk purchase in a couple of years here in TX, but once in a while some friends and I will combine orders to save on shipping and take advantage of discounts. If it happens next time I will post it for you.
 
What a shame. Someone takes the time to report, and track something down. Only to be made fun of.
 
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