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Bullet contacting powder during seating...concerned

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Alemaniac, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. Alemaniac

    Alemaniac Member

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    Greetings all,

    After the past 12 months of successful reloading (at the time of writing this), I've come across a concern as of last night...

    I'm reloading .357 magnum using the following bullet and powder:
    • Speer .357 158gr JHP (part #4211)
    • IMR 4227

    According to Speer's load data on their website, it states the following:
    start charge - 15.0grs / max charge - 17.0grs
    C.O.L. - 1.570"

    (I'm using an RCBS die #18212)

    I went with 15.2grs of IMR 4227 and when I'm seating the bullet, it would seem that the bottom of the bullet is contacting the powder and the maximum case length is correct. Is this safe? The load data does not indicate a compressed load.

    With no gap between the powder and the bullet, wouldn't this cause excessive pressure? I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this situation.

    Thank you,
    Alemaniac
     
  2. WelshShooter

    WelshShooter Member

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    Whilst I don't have any experience with this powder, I do have experience of this calibre. Some of the full power loads will have some form of compression although it appears that the Speer #14 manual doesn't really illustrate this for 158gr loads.

    Nonetheless, here's an old thread on here discussing this exact same predicament. I'd reccomend giving that a read and to hear other people's experience on here:
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/possible-imr-4227-compressed-357-load.785149/
     
  3. flashhole

    flashhole Member

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    On the Hodgdon reloading site the only bullet they list with IMR 4227 is 140 grain Hdy and the load starts at 11 grains and maximum is 14 grains.

    I would double check the load data.
     
  4. Mn Fats

    Mn Fats Member

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    I smush powder on certian loads and cartridges. You just have to make sure your not hot rodding a firearm that can't handle it. Check your manuals.
     
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  5. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    It's called a Compressed Load. Many manuals denote the same in their data.

    Get thee off to Hodgdon's site and check your data, then check your charge weight. . .

    Good, now that you've done that, welcome to different data. Get used to it. Reloading data is as close as most people ever get to real live engineering measurements, and measurement variation happens. Start low, work up.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  6. Alemaniac

    Alemaniac Member

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    Darn, I did a search but I failed to insert the powder type being used. That thread helps a lot, thanks.

    Yeah I also didn't see any loads for my particular bullet. Here's the document on Speer's website where I located the information - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...caliber_357-358_dia/357_Magnum_158_TMJ_FN.pdf

    I'm not seeing IMR 4227 with my Speer bullet and weight. I'm guessing that combo wasn't part of their test session and thus not part of the data.
     
  7. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    Until you're pushing the hairy edge, bullet weight (158) and type (jacketed) is perfectly sufficient for starting and approximate max. Hodgdon's 158gr jacketed IMR4227 data is what you're after.
     
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  8. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    I'm not entirely sure it's possible to fit enough IMR4227 into a magnum case to cause serious over pressure. It's fairly bulky, many max loads with it are noted as compressed in my Lyman 49 manual.

    I use it mostly in 44mag, and with near max loads and a good crimp shoots very accurately and is clean burning.

    Smells funky though.
     
  9. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    ^^^This. Even in other calibers it likes to be at or nearly compressed for best performance.
     
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  10. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    How can you tell? Did you measure from case mouth to powder, and then base of the bullet to cannelure? Or are you just eyeballing it?

    IMR4227 is one of the slowest pistol powders, so you should expect it to pretty much fill the case below the base of the bullet. At least for most Magnum loads. Just from memory, in my manuals 4227 is usually the highest charge of pistol powder available in the data set for a given cartridge and bullet combination.
     
  11. Ironicaintit

    Ironicaintit Member

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    Ive used 4227 in 357 mag, 44 mag, and 30 carbine. every one of them is a compressed load.
    I'm convinced 4227 is the safest pistol powder out there.
    In fact, loads I tried with it that werent compressed, left a little unburnt powder behind. It likes being packed in there.
    Use a magnum primer, if you arent already.
     
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  12. mrawesome22-250

    mrawesome22-250 Member

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    Compressed charges can be a good thing. Takes powder position out of the equation.
     
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  13. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    I've gotten by using a Winchester LPP which is marked as both a magnum and standard, so I wouldn't say it needs a hotter primer like H110/Win296, but it shouldn't hurt.
     
  14. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Compression, per se, isn't a problem as long as you're still under Max.
    And yes, SPEER does list that bullet/OAL maxing at 17gr
    However, Quickload tells me that's a 122% Volume load. . . . . And much as I like full/compressed cases... that got my attention

    I did go to Hodgdon's, and while they don't have a listing for IMR4227, they did for H4227 -- maxing out at 16gr and 10-thou longer OAL for 115% compression -- more reasonable
    That, and H4227 is ~3% slower (lower pressure) than IMR4227.

    And if it maxes at 16gr, I'd definitely keep IMR4227 no more than that.
     
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  15. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

    When crimping on cannelures or in crimp groove of different brands of bullets , the bullets base will be at different depths into the case. Light compression is ok.

    The 1999 IMR powder company data has the "C" for compressed with the Remington 158 gr jacketed bullet.

    I was loading 15 grs IMR4227 with my 163 gr cast lswc in 357 mag.

    20191206_195116.jpg 20191206_195146.jpg

    Data shows maximum loads. Reduce 10% and work up.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  16. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    As long as there is not enough compression to interfere with bullet seating, you are not over max, and you are using a reasonable OAL (Seated to the cannelure is always reasonable), then you should be good to go.

    If the powder wants to push the bullet back after after seating, recheck everything.
     
  17. Alemaniac

    Alemaniac Member

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    Hopefully not as bad as roadkill left in the hot July sun

    Noted!

    I eyeballed it (yes guilty). I even held a loose bullet next to the case at the cannelure seating depth and that's what concerned me.

    Ok, got it! Yes, I did indeed use small pistol magnum primers - Federal no. 200

    Very interesting..I'm still learning.

    Noted

    I didn't notice any resistance when seating and yes, I did seat to the cannelure. This was my first time using a roll crimp and took some reading to set the die up accordingly.


    I just learned some very valuable and new information and I'm glad I opened up mouth and inquired instead of assuming all would be fine until something bad occurred at the range. Thanks everyone for the great replies (even the ones I didn't quote). All of this knowledge will help me become a better and safer handloader for sure and reduce any doubts I may have.

    You guys are awesome!

    -Alemaniac
     
  18. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    As per Hodgdon, new production IMR4227 is just the old H4227 rebranded. H4227 has been technically discontinued, even tho it's recipe lives on in IMR4227. IOWs, new production IMR4227 is not any slower/faster than the old H4227. Kinda confusing, and I have wondered why they did such a thing. Years ago when asked, they claimed that IMR4227 and H4227 powders were not interchangeable, even tho they were very close. If you have a question as to whether or not you have new stock or old IMR4227, look at the label. It is now made in Australia, not Canada. If you recently bought some IMR4227 that says made in Canada, then it is old stock.
     
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  19. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    The reason I heard and understand why they rebranded old H4227 as new IMR4227 is that the IMR brand sold better, but they were discontinuing it for some other reason. Probably profit margin/ease of production related reason.
     
  20. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    I never understood, why they just did not make them the same to avoid any confusion. Similar to some of Hodgdon's other twins like H110/W296 and HP-38/W231. When I contacted Hodgdon about the possibility of confusing the old IMR4227 with new, they stated that the lower charge rates for H4227/new IMR4227, meant no reason for concern of high pressure..
     
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  21. rfwobbly

    rfwobbly Member

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    You've been given some good info here.

    • Reloaders do not like to see compressed loads as a general rule, but they can be good or bad. If the powder is new to you, then ask questions (like you are doing).
    • Most load books will have some indicator (a "C" or asterisk) to tell you the load they tested was indeed compressed.
    • Be aware there are a few powders that never like to be compressed.
     
  22. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    The other "twins" are The Same Stuff, made in the same powder mill, just different labels.
    Once upon a time, IMR powder was made by, wait for it, IMR in Canada, and H series extruded powder was made by ADI in Australia.
    Apparently they could not get their overseas contractors to closely copy the originals.
    Now they are frotzing around with labeling to balance out cheap source vs older brand name.
     
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  23. flashhole

    flashhole Member

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    rfwobbly wrote - Reloaders do not like to see compressed loads as a general rule, but they can be good or bad. If the powder is new to you, then ask questions (like you are doing).

    Asking questions is always good. Not sure I can agree with this ^^^ generalization. For rifle loads I always try and get a load that is mildly compressed. I've found compressed loads have always been the most accurate.
     
  24. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Current Safety Data Sheets show IMR 4227 made in Canada , as of July 2018. . The H4227 is made in Australia as of Jan 2019.

    IMR4227 is shown on the IMR website.
    H4227 is not shown on the Hodgdon website.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  25. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Which tends to say . . . don't trust that they are truly the same powders -- tho' the manufacturing specs might call for the same performance.

    Word to the wise... QL/Denton found the Hodgdon 4227 performance -- in his bomb tests -- to be slightly less/lower pressure compared to IMR4227
    That could be nothing else than effectively lot-to-lot variation -- wouldn't surprise me.
    For the new reloader, and even us old fogeys -- I'd fail safe to Hodgdon load data at the start.
     
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