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Bullet Tumble

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Onward Allusion, Oct 3, 2012.

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  1. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    Is bullet tumble necessarily a bad thing in a SD situation? I was shooting a older NEF snub in 22LR and noticed that the target had keyholes at 7 yards. Leaded barrel from hundreds of rounds.

    It got me thinking...if a bullet is tumbling on the way into the body or hitting the target sideways, doesn't that create a larger or more ragged hole along with ripping things apart inside? Thoughts?
     
  2. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    yes it does, but if a bullet is tumbling in the air, your accuracy goes to hell.....in a SD situation, ill take accuracy over additional 'tumble damage' any day....
     
  3. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    Tumbling bullets are velocity-compromised.

    Slower bullets penetrate less.

    Now, a 105mm Howitzer round that comes through sideways will make a hole through-and-through animate targets anyway.

    The .22 LR is a joke for a self-defense weapon.
    Its a pathetic joke if its tumbling.
     
  4. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    I understand that, but what about at close range? Say 5 yards? 3 yards? BTW, not debating the merits of 22LR for SD. To each their own on that one.
     
  5. TurtlePhish

    TurtlePhish Member

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    Largely depends on bullet shape. Something like most pistol bullets wouldn't have a dramatically different wound profile- the shape isn't very different viewed from the side or bottom compared to the top. However, if you look at some projectiles for rifles, they can be VERY long for their diameter. If one of those were tumbling in flight, a sideways impact could very well produce an incredibly nasty wound (not to mention additional fragmentation damage from stresses on the bullet at that angle).

    Of course, a hit from a rifle at 3 to 5 yards is likely to be lethal no matter how the bullet hits the target.

    Talking strictly handguns, you MIGHT do more damage. Whether or not that "might" is worth the negative aspects of tumbling projectiles is up to you.
     
  6. 230RN
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    230RN Marines raising the left-leaning Pisa tower.

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    What the above folks said, but did it do this after you cleaned the barrel? You did clean out the barrel, didn't you?

    Makes me wonder how a .22LR barrel got leaded up unless it was really pitted by rust at some point or someone was firing a lot of the old crimped-shell ratshot rounds through it. These did not have a plastic jacket around the shot charge. The little #12 pellets just went up the barrel stark nekkid. I suspect that it was used mostly as a barn gun for rats running around in there. Or barn pigeons.

    [​IMG]
    This shows the old-fashioned crimped shells. (I think these look more like Ramset powder-actuated driver blanks, but that's the kind of crimp I'm talking about. Old-timers will remember these.)

    The Liberator pistol was unrifled, but that was meant for almost contact distances and with the .45ACP slug's profile, at those distances, sidewise or backwards when it hit almost didn't matter.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator

    Besides, the expanding bubble of hot gases inside the body cavity with a contact shot would probably do all the damage needed without any bullet at all.

    The original versions of those .45 Colt / .410 shotshell revolvers like the Taurus "Judge" were known to tumble with the bulleted .45 Colt round, but that was because the rifling was so shallow. I don't know if they fixed that or not.

    My personal impression at the time I read the American RIfleman review of them was that the very shallow rifling was kind of a token thing anyhow to keep it from being called an illegally short smooth-barreled shotgun, yet shallow enough that the shot charge didn't spin too much and form doughnut patterns too badly.

    They may have improved matters since then. Nevertheless, same story as with the Liberator: A .45 Colt round at the bad-breath-belly-to-belly distances that the gun was intended for, whether the bullet struck sideways or backwards didn't matter much to the intended target.

    Terry, 230RN
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  7. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    One must consider the fact that a tumbling bullet, if it hits sideways, is presenting a much larger surface area at impact. With virtually the same mass spread out over a much larger area, the damage at the surface might be greater, but the energy will be shed much faster and penetration will be seriously compromised.

    With your heavily leaded barrel, the rifling will be full of lead, therefore, imparting no spin to the bullet resulting in an unstable bullet, apt to go awry in most any fashion.

    I'm in the process of breaking in a new 22LR pistol with a 5" barrel, and ran 150 rounds through it the first time out, using copper plated bullets. Accuracy had deteriorated considerably toward the end, but no bullets were tumbling.

    Even after soaking the barrel with Hoppes for half an hour, I got the cleaning rod with a 22 caliber brush on it stuck in the barrel! The rod would not go into the barrel more than a half inch! I had to work the brush in and out a little at a time before I could get the rod through the barrel. I couldn't hardly believe how much lead I got out of the barrel. I was removing slivers of lead. It took 2 hours to clean that barrel of all traces of lead. I can't imagine how much lead is in your barrel.

    The point is, keep your barrel clean and it'll perform well ... Well, as well as any 22LR is able. Please give us a range report after you get your barrel clear of the lead. I'll be doing more break-in this Friday with mine and I'll report back as well.

    Woody
     
  8. VA27

    VA27 Member

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    At 5 to 7 yards I don't think it'll make much difference. I don't think anyone here would volunteer to take a hit from one just to prove a point.
     
  9. gunnutery

    gunnutery Member

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    I'd never thought about it being different in pistol bullets but I fully agree with the above statement. However to add to it, once the bullet is doing something other than spinning nose-first, it's acting in a way that was not intended and thus becomes very unpredictable. As others have stated, 3-5 yards or HD ranges in general, it's probably not going to be a big enough difference to matter, but I'd rather have my rounds doing what they're supposed to do while in flight.
     
  10. Remllez

    Remllez Member

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    Get that barrel squeaky clean, scrub a dub dub. You need all the velocity your .22 can muster for penetration and accuracy at the target, most bullets turn or yaw once inside the body. Look carefully at gel test and notice the slug rarely comes to rest straight.

    You need penetration to effect organ damage and a .22 slug slapping the skin sideways loses velocity quickly.
     
  11. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    I had shot about 1/2 a brick from the revolver before it started keyholing. Besides, it's a snubbie barrel, much greater issue with stabilization in the first place. It's a range plinker, so no worries about needing it for SD, but I guess I do need to drive a brush down it a few times. I might make a block of ballistic jello before cleaning to prove out my theory just for grins, though.
     
  12. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    It'll be interesting to see your results.

    Woody
     
  13. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    You got a link to that? I have seen 100+ yard shots made with the taurus judge, the bullets definately werent tumbling, and this is the first I have heard of it.

    To add, I dont own a judge, dont want a judge, have no use for it. Just saying that I have never heard of this being an issue with them.
     
  14. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    My wife has a carbine version of The Judge and I can consistantly ding an 8" steel plate with it at 50 yards using lead .45 Colt cowboy loads. I have not tried jacketed bullets yet but lead ones do take the rifling and make nice round holes in targets.
     
  15. Kenneth

    Kenneth Member

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    Not necessarily.

    A larger surface area at the point of impact is more likely to produce a stop or a knock down. Stopping power, or knock down power is always preferred over lethality in an SD situation.



    When you get mad enough, grab your rifle and run outside. If no one else is out there with you, it’s not time yet.
     
  16. homatok

    homatok Member

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    Quote "A larger surface area at the point of impact is more likely to produce a stop or a knock down. Stopping power, or knock down power is always preferred over lethality in an SD situation."

    Why??
     
  17. 230RN
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    Keyholing in .45 Colt in the original Taurus Judge

    I first read about that in the American Rifleman, August 2007 p. 50, when the gun first came out. I found an article referencing that older article:

    http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1526&cid=26

    But this cited re-review doesn't mention the keyholing. As I said,

    I guess they have, according to your observations.

    The original article also had a closeup pic of the indexing star at the rear of the cylinder which looked as if it had been haggled out by a Dremel tool. The original reviewer did not emphasize the point, but left it to the reader to figure that out for himself from that picture.

    The original article had photos of the keyholing in the target. At the time I read it, I suspected that the keyholing may also have been caused by poor timing due to that indexing star, although the author did not mention that. He only dwelt on the shallow rifling.

    I also felt that part of it might have been due to the fact that, with that long (unrifled) chamber for the .45 Colt round, the bullet had already accelerated to 2-300 feet per second when it hit the shallow rifling and had to try to spin up instantly, resulting in stripping of the bullet. That one was my idea.

    It is fairly common, in my opinion, for gun reviewers, who obtain their test guns "for free," especially when the manufacturer is an advertiser, to point out the good points of the tested firearm and gloss over its bad points. I'm sure the astute observer has noted that almost every time a review is published, there is an advertisement for that gun or accessory in the magazine.

    Terry, 230RN
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  18. TurtlePhish

    TurtlePhish Member

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    Larger surface area at the point of impact simply means that the impact force is spread out over a larger area, not much more than that. I'd rather get hit with a .50 rimfire than a .223, and I daresay the .223 would do more damage.

    I'd be fine with lethality in an SD cartridge. I don't put any stock in "stopping power" or "knock down power".
     
  19. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    The .380/200 Manstopper tumbled after it hit, hence the name.
     
  20. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

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    Kinda reminds me of some of the Vietnam Era war stories where the M16 bullet could hit your arm and tumble around until it came out your big toe!
     
  21. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    ^
    Don't forget about the rattling .22lr. it'll skid around and clean you out like a trout
     
  22. Kenneth

    Kenneth Member

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    So you prefer FMJ bullets over JHPs for self defense? FMJs are more lethal but incapacitation times are greater. JHPs at 9mm PB+P+ or larger produce one shot stops over 80% of the time, and are less lethal.

    Handbook of Firearms and Ballistics
    Examining and Interpreting Forensic Evidence
    By Brian J. Heard
     
  23. Millwright

    Millwright Member

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    W.E.G.,

    "The .22 LR is a joke for a self-defense weapon.
    Its a pathetic joke if its tumbling."

    Y'all might want to run that opinion past an experienced forensics examiner.

    The heeled bullets used in the .22RF are, of necessity, soft, thus given to being deformed or fragmented in flesh. How much and to what extent is a function of impact velocity IME. They also tend to "saucer"; that is not take a straight path or eing deflected by bone. The latter probably why they were a caliber of choice for assassins. >MW
     
  24. TurtlePhish

    TurtlePhish Member

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    I never said that. I'd strongly prefer JHPs to FMJs for SD. All I said was that I didn't believe in the idea of "stopping power". A one shot stop is a one shot stop, and increased lethality shouldn't really be seen as a negative either way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  25. Kenneth

    Kenneth Member

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    I’m with W.E.G. on this one. A .22 LR most certainly can inflict a mortal wound if you hit a vital area and the person you are shooting isn’t wearing too much clothing. However, the whole point of self defense is to stop an attacker cold, not to wait minutes or hours for an attacker to lose enough blood to finally pass out.
     
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