Bump fire ban bill

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Definitely a wide open door for declaring "normal" accessories illegal in there. I'm not at all surprised. But hey, we should just let them have bump fire stocks in the name of a "compromise" where we are unlikely to get anything at all and open the door to other regulation in the name of public safety. I find it especially telling that possession of devices already out there will become illegal with no provision to grandfather them or register them in the NFA.
 
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Problem with "let them have" is any self loader can "function to accelerate the rate of fire".

What exactly are we talking about?

The rate of fire of a firearm is capable of is established by the rate that the action can cycle and magazine can feed another round. How we manipulate the trigger is entirely different.

Kind of like the late Bob Munden could fire two shots from a single action revolver faster than some machine guns could.

1:00 into this one.
 
I shudder to think of what the previous administration could have done with this bill and what the current and future administrations could do by executive order if they so desired. They don't just want bump fire stocks. They want everything they can get.
 
BTW gun broker just posted they won't allow any bump fire stocks to be sold.


The Management of GunBroker.com has made the decision to no longer allow listings of Bump/Slide Fire stocks or similar items on the website. Please remove any active listings for these items if possible. Management is currently working on removing all active listings.

Please do not create new listings for these items or relist prior listings.
 
While bump fire stocks are not for me I hope they are not banned. I have shot a lot of full auto guns in my life and it is fun and exciting for about 15 minutes. After that it just turns into an expensive ammo waster. IMHO
 
Englishmn provides the following, from GunBroker:

The Management of GunBroker.com has made the decision to no longer allow listings of Bump/Slide Fire stocks or similar items on the website. Please remove any active listings for these items if possible. Management is currently working on removing all active listings.

Please do not create new listings for these items or relist prior listings.

I wonder how long it will be for GB to prohibit other "politically-incorrect" items for listing, such as AR/AK-type rifles, scopes, laser-sights, or magazines capable of holding ore than ten rounds.. anything that can be construed as "scary to the general public", or "used on at least one occasion during a high-profile criminal act."
 
Trigger systems that fire on the pull and release stroke are next, then the shockwave. This is just the beginning, it took these morons 10 years to even find out that they exhisted, it's a good thing they aren't more effeciant. They could have found out a long time ago if they wanted to. It just shows you the lack of interest when no one is watching.All thses years an not one of them was interested in reading a gun magazine. yet they feel they have the right to tell us what is good and bad for us, without even knowing what is available. Talk about a bunch of Condisending Hipocrates, at least keep up with what you are supposed to be against.
 
Trigger systems that fire on the pull and release stroke are next, then the shockwave. This is just the beginning, it took these morons 10 years to even find out that they exhisted, it's a good thing they aren't more efficiant. They could have found out a long time ago if they wanted to. It just shows you the lack of interest when no one is watching.All thses years an not one of them was interested in reading a gun magazine. yet they feel they have the right to tell us what is good and bad for us, without even knowing what is available. Talk about a bunch of Condisending Hipocrates, at least keep up with what you are supposed to be against.
 
Far too overreaching. They might get it with "designed and intended to", but not with "designed or functions to". Way to ambiguous and encompassing. There's also the problem with flat out prohibiting possession, making people felons for owning something that was perfectly legal, thus forcing them to give up personal property without compensation. They would have to grandfather the owners, make them NFA with amnesty and waived tax stamp, or compensate the owners with fair market value. State laws that completely prohibit something have gotten away with it because people could sell to residents of other states. This being federal, that option does not exist.
 
Be sure to notice the "or Possess" wording! How do they plane to implement that, At the barrel of a different gun? Contact your congress people and let them know this is a no go!
 
We lost the "shall not infringe" argument back in 1934. The current Federal regulations are entirely tolerable for any type of firearms I might want to buy, including those classified under the NFA. The gun community creates problems for itself when they strive to circumvent the existing rules. Examples; bump stocks, 80% receivers and Sig braces, nudge nudge, wink wink. I'm guessing mine will be a minority opinion but posted anyway.
 
The gun community creates problems for itself when they strive to circumvent the existing rules.
Point number 1: the gun Community do not create a problem here. A Madman with an unexplained desire to kill a lot of people created a problem here. Had he not had it bump fire stocks, he would have killed just as many people and arguably even more, assuming that instead of bump fire stocks he'd gotten decent rifle scopes and aimed each shot quickly instead of spraying. Don't go saying anything that sounds like the gun Community created a problem which got 59 people killed.

Point number 2: many of our gun control laws are seen by most of us has either unjust or infringing on what should be the understood meaning of the clear words of the Constitution. There is no moral imperative to follow them one millimeter beyond what the absolute letter of the law is determined to require. Does that get us into trouble? I suppose that depends on your way of looking at it.

bump stocks
... are perfectly legal under the terms of the National Firearms Act as interpreted by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. And they have said as much. This is not skirting the law, this is following the law.
They operate by manipulating the trigger once for each round that goes off and that is not a machine gun under federal law and the batf will tell you that all day long.

80% receivers
... Haven't got anybody into trouble that I know of, with the minor exception of some people who were a little bit too casual about the rules governing being a manufacturer. There isn't a single thing wrong with making your own firearm from an 80% receiver, a block of raw metal, or a dump truck full of iron ore and an oak tree if you so desire.

And sig braces
... Which mostly went to show that even after several years of futzing around the ATF eventually decided they're just no big deal.

But in every herd there's some who only stand in the middle of the field and there's others who enjoy the grass that grows a little closer to the fence. As long as you don't throw under the bus those of your buddies who have broken no laws but just enjoyed a wider range of experience than you did, do whatever you're comfortable with.
 
Passage of any gun control bill in 2017 is impossible simply because Congress does not have enough days in session for the Bill to work it's way through committees in both the House and Senate. Economic reform is the big item for Republicans this year.

When Congress reconvenes in January much of the emotion will have passed and bigger events will be the news. That is why Trump is playing it smart by avoiding making statements about gun control and the NRA to lessor extent by saying they support a review by the BATF knowing full well it will not happen this year.
 
Passage of any gun control bill in 2017 is impossible simply because Congress does not have enough days in session for the Bill to work it's way through committees in both the House and Senate. Economic reform is the big item for Republicans this year.

When Congress reconvenes in January much of the emotion will have passed and bigger events will be the news. That is why Trump is playing it smart by avoiding making statements about gun control and the NRA to lessor extent by saying they support a review by the BATF knowing full well it will not happen this year.
You are right. I was hoping we could leverage some improvements in the NFA, such as reopening the registry, out of this. I guess that's too much to hope for.
 
Point number 1: the gun Community do not create a problem here.
You are absolutely correct as it applies to this incident. However, this incident focused the spotlight on these devices. A lot of people are now researching them. Some of that research includes videos posted on Youtube showing people gleefully demonstrating these devices proving that an AR equipped with a bump stock is capable of being fired in a manner that looks an awful lot like automatic gunfire. I sure as heck wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that rate of fire. Such antics are not good optics for the pro-gun crowd, in my opinion. Can you mimic this behavior with a thumb and a belt loop? Apparently, but that technique results in far less accuracy than the bump stocks. So the fact remains that bump stocks are nothing more than an obvious path for mimicking fully automatic rates of fire while simultaneously avoiding the NFA process.

Point number 2: many of our gun control laws are seen by most of us has either unjust or infringing
I get that. But we lost that argument back in 1934. The chances of repealing the NFA has about as much chance of passage as a repeal of the 2nd Amendment so I choose to accept that reality and move on.

Bump Stocks....
... are perfectly legal under the terms of the National Firearms Act as interpreted by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. And they have said as much. This is not skirting the law, this is following the law.
They operate by manipulating the trigger once for each round that goes off and that is not a machine gun under federal law and the batf will tell you that all day long.
Once again, you are "technically" correct. If the provisions of the NFA don't cover these devices then I'm okay with Congress passing a Bill that will cover them. As a child reaching the age where I would be allowed to venture away from our house on foot my dad taught me the proper way to cross the street. I remember commenting to him that "pedestrians had the right of way". Dad's response sticks with me today, "son, you could be right...but dead right". Another way of stating that is just because something comes in your size doesn't mean you should wear it. In my opinion, bump stocks are a clear attempt to allow a shooter to shoot a firearm at a nearly indistinguishable rate of fire as a fully automatic weapon while simultaneously avoiding the NFA process.

80% Receivers.....
Haven't got anybody into trouble that I know of, with the minor exception of some people who were a little bit too casual about the rules governing being a manufacturer.
Well there was the guy down in Georgia last week that was caught with two ARs that had been built on 80% receivers illegally converted to fire in full auto mode. Did "A" have anything to do with "B"? Probably not but using 80% receivers that never went through a NICS check added another layer of anonymity for this law breaker. Again, while perfectly legal (under current law) the majority of the country (in my opinion) would ask why this is allowable. I'm not sure I understand why the creation of a firearm needs to be completely masked.

Sig braces....
Which mostly went to show that even after several years of futzing around the ATF eventually decided they're just no big deal.
Of all of the provisions of the NFA I disagree with the rules governing overall length of rifles the most. However, the law is the law. I've been to a lot of gun ranges and have never seen anyone using a Sig brace while that brace was strapped to their arm. My opinion remains that the majority of the people who buy these devices are using them to skirt the NFA process.

As for grazing in the middle of the herd, while I always try to drink upstream from the herd, I pride myself on arriving at my own conclusions by applying critical thought after listening to all sides. I realize my opinions won't be popular here but they are equally valid as those opinions opposing mine. And I think it is important to express all opinions in debates like these.
 
the gun Community do not create a problem here.
An excellent point.

Further to that end, the dust has not yet settled on this crime.

There are some experts (real ones, not just media types with "gonne eggspurt" on their business cards) who ar suggesting the shooter used an M-240 or RPD; which wore probably acquired from "Joe from behind the bowling alley."

Which goes back to the truism about how the title of a Bill actually does the opposite of what it says that it will do,
 
Point number 1: the gun Community do not create a problem here.
You are absolutely correct as it applies to this incident. However, this incident focused the spotlight on these devices. A lot of people are now researching them. Some of that research includes videos posted on Youtube showing people gleefully demonstrating these devices proving that an AR equipped with a bump stock is capable of being fired in a manner that looks an awful lot like automatic gunfire. I sure as heck wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that rate of fire. Such antics are not good optics for the pro-gun crowd, in my opinion. Can you mimic this behavior with a thumb and a belt loop? Apparently, but that technique results in far less accuracy than the bump stocks. So the fact remains that bump stocks are nothing more than an obvious path for mimicking fully automatic rates of fire while simultaneously avoiding the NFA process.

And to that I say BRAVO. I oppose the NFA to begin with -- in whole and in every part -- and so I laud the inventors and gun tinkerers of our nation who found a PERFECTLY and BATFE-APPROVED LEGAL way to give some full-auto fire capacity back to the average gun owner who can't spend the tens of thousands of dollars the GOVERNMENT has forced purpose-built full-auto firearms to cost now.

Did someone misuse one? Yes, someone did. Is that EVER a reason for us to give up our firearms and the associated tech? NO. NEVER.
 
Point number 2: many of our gun control laws are seen by most of us has either unjust or infringing
I get that. But we lost that argument back in 1934. The chances of repealing the NFA has about as much chance of passage as a repeal of the 2nd Amendment so I choose to accept that reality and move on.

We lost that argument? Not while I'm alive and working in the gun rights movement. I assume I and the rest of the RKBA supporters who feel as I do won't have your support. Guess I'll have to live with that.
 
Bump Stocks....
... are perfectly legal under the terms of the National Firearms Act as interpreted by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. And they have said as much. This is not skirting the law, this is following the law.
They operate by manipulating the trigger once for each round that goes off and that is not a machine gun under federal law and the batf will tell you that all day long.
Once again, you are "technically" correct.
I'm "technically" right? Yeah, we have a name for that. It's called ... BEING RIGHT. ;)

If the provisions of the NFA don't cover these devices then I'm okay with Congress passing a Bill that will cover them.
"May your chains rest lightly"... and all of that.

... In my opinion, bump stocks are a clear attempt to allow a shooter to shoot a firearm at a nearly indistinguishable rate of fire as a fully automatic weapon while simultaneously avoiding the NFA process.
See response above: Bravo!
 
80% Receivers.....
Haven't got anybody into trouble that I know of, with the minor exception of some people who were a little bit too casual about the rules governing being a manufacturer.
Well there was the guy down in Georgia last week that was caught with two ARs that had been built on 80% receivers illegally converted to fire in full auto mode. Did "A" have anything to do with "B"? Probably not but ...

OK, full stop. You've just make a logical leap that you should absolutely back up and look at with deep scrutiny.

There was a guy down in GA who did something LEGAL and then did something ELSE that was ILLEGAL. And ...that relates to what? How?

Hey, two guys were picked up driving a late model Chevy. And they'd robbed a bank. Let's talk about how these late model Chevys are pretty suspicious... o_O

:rofl:

You can't simply put two comments into one sentence and then continue on as though that now makes them directly related. A+B=C...so it also must =D? No...that's not right.

And when you do that sort of fuzzy logic linking you betray all of your fellow gun owners. You're tarring MANY people with a shadow of suspicion for the completely unrelated ILLEGAL act of a few.

...using 80% receivers that never went through a NICS check added another layer of anonymity for this law breaker.
Lot of good that did him, apparently. Seems he was ARRESTED. Did you have a point, here?

Again, while perfectly legal (under current law) the majority of the country (in my opinion) would ask why this is allowable.
And so? Let them ask! They probably would also have to ask a great many questions when it comes to guns and gun laws. Getting to explain the absurdity of many gun laws to someone who never thought about them before is one of life's subtle pleasures. (Try explaining why handguns and rifles are not NFA items and can be bought down at WalMart, but a gun halfway between them is worth a $200,000 fine and 10 years in federal prison... go on, the look on their face will be priceless.)

I'm not sure I understand why the creation of a firearm needs to be completely masked.
That's too bad. I do understand. I understand that owning guns is a fundamental right enumerated under the Constitution and that the 2nd Amendment exists because people weren't real happy about what their government tried to do with the weapons they owned. Might be a good idea to keep some out of the government's records, just because. Maybe that's not a terribly pragmatic matter right now, but it is fundamental to the character of our liberty.
 
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Sig braces....
Which mostly went to show that even after several years of futzing around the ATF eventually decided they're just no big deal.
Of all of the provisions of the NFA I disagree with the rules governing overall length of rifles the most. However, the law is the law. I've been to a lot of gun ranges and have never seen anyone using a Sig brace while that brace was strapped to their arm. My opinion remains that the majority of the people who buy these devices are using them to skirt the NFA process.

Uh... YUP. And now the ATF has finally come around to admit that they don't have a problem with that. I guess you still do, though?

Funny, we finally got the federal regulatory agency to side WITH US on a matter and you aren't on board with it. The mind wobbles.
 
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