Burst Walker Cylinder

[rodwha]

I sent a fellow a few of my 285 grn WFN bullets to try out. Last night I saw how he posted that his Walker cylinder burst when he tried it with 40 grns of Pyrodex P. The rip across the cylinder was horrendous!

Bullet:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C-D.png

Walker:

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,7700.0.html

When I designed this I gave it a broader driving band with the intentions of it raising the pressures to increase the velocity a bit as this long bullet takes up powder capacity in my Ruger, which is what I designed it for. I also gave it the wide FN so that it created a big hole, but also to reduce the overall length, to get more sectional density without taking up valued capacity.

I'm surprised that his cylinder ruptured with such a moderate charge. Had it have been loaded with Triple 7 or some such I might not be quite as flabbergasted.

I tried to load these in my Ruger on my last outing, but forgot that I figured a max charge to be about 25 grns, and I absentmindedly tried 30, and so the bullet wouldn't fully seat and left me with an unusable pistol until I got home to clear it. I had to open up the loading window of my Ruger (hated to modify it) just to be able to load these as I hadn't taken into account the width at the nose and how it would be effected by the frame.

What are your thoughts on this? What say you?

 

[Willie Sutton]

Real pity, those ASM's are good Walkers.

Pretty... odd... to see this sort of thing. Wonder if there wasn't something else going on (like a bore obstruction to start with). having shot many "pack 'em full" cylinders of BP in Walkers, it's... odd.


Willie

.

 

[Crawdad1]

How old is the ASM revolver he's using and the first time he fired it??? I mean this revolver could have been built a long ways back and while they built a beautiful revolver they were sometimes hit or miss quality wise.

But, it saved his hand so it wasn't junk.

 

[rodwha]

It was his first outing with it.

I don't know anything about his pistol though.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Yeah... this. Crawdaddy has a good point. My newest ASM (Colt Marked) Walker is a gem. My 1960's era "Replica Arms" marked one is.. well... it's great for a display....


Willie

.

 

[Patocazador]

What are the differences between the diameters of the Walker cylinder vs the ROA? If the Walker's chambers are smaller, then pressures will rise. Also to be considered is the difference between the 2 alloys. Replica firearms can be anything from excellent to downright crap.

If you designed the bullet and supplied them to the shooter, you could be liable for any damages to property or person.

 

[rodwha]

I've been wanting a new Uberti model. I've not read anything bad about them, but I'd be hesitant to shoot that bullet through it using T7 and Olde E, which is what I use.

 

[Bezoar]

did he load it backwards?

 

[Crawdad1]

Another question, did he buy from someone who shot it, didn't clean it properly, let it rust then cleaned it up and sold it?

A lot of questions surrounding this revolver he used. But a lot of people here load those hand cannons up and blast them with no effects at all.

I don't know, I said my piece I'll shut up now.

 

[Curator]

rodwha,

I think there is more to this story. Having personally repaired several ASM Walkers, I know that they usually have chamber diameters of about .447. I wonder how he was able to seat the .456" diameter bullet. Was the cylinder "modified" to enlarge the chambers? Several of the ASM Walkers I have dealt with also had very oversize bores and deep rifling. My own has had the chambers bored to .470 to get it to shoot accurately with its .468 groove diameter bore. I load mine with .480 round balls.

If the cylinder was not bored out then it was either defective metallurgy, or something in the loading process created an over pressure situation.

 

[Old Fuff]

What happened easily could, if the bullet wasn't seated fully down on the power charge and they're was an air space between the powder and bullet's base. Other factors, such as the design and weight of the bullet, and exactly what powder was used might have contributed. If a true smokeless (rather then black powder substitute) was loaded by mistake the problem becomes obvious. I could go on and on...

I wouldn't jump to a conclusion that in and of itself the bullet did the evil deed.

 

[rodwha]

I doubt it was loaded backwards, but I certainly cannot say for sure.

I don't care to buy used BP firearms as I don't know how they've been treated with the exception of my Old Army, which was my father's best friend who passed. He took very good care of it.

I have no idea as what he knows about the pistol, if anything. As he was quite surprised I assume he thought it in normal god working condition. But how many people would pass on problem children to the unsuspecting?

I had wondered about whether or not it was seated fully too as I know that's what happens when it's not. But he seems to be a seasoned BP shooter, and so I'd suspect he knew what he was doing.

And that brings me to the likely conclusion that he used the proper powder, seated it properly, and otherwise handled it properly. That begs the questions about the state of the firearm as well as how that bullet acts upon being fired.

And if his chambers are that small then it likely created a wadcutter giving it even more bearing surface and pressure.

 

[rodwha]

I'll certainly not be sending anyone else any, and I've let the other 2 know of what happened.

 

[72coupe]

Old Fuff has it right. 30 grains in a Walker cylinder will certainly leave an air space leading to a detonation.

 

[rodwha]

It was a typo. He actually used 40 grns. Those bullets are 0.675" long, just a touch longer than Kaido's 255 grn ROA conical.

 

[72coupe]

I am still betting on the air space and a detonation.

 

[swathdiver]

Hey Rodwha, if you load a bullet with too much powder, pull out knife and cut the tip of the bullet off so it can rotate in the cylinder. Happens to me all the time!

Kaido today lifted his restriction so folks who own his molds can give away or sell his conicals.

What happened to Bruce is weird; I wonder if there's more evidence not yet discovered that led to this unpleasant event.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I just gotta ask. Why are you guys shooting these heavy bullets in a C&B revolver whose design is over 160 years old? Why not just shoot round balls, that the gun was designed for?

 

[damoc]

I just gotta ask. Why are you guys shooting these heavy bullets in a C&B revolver whose design is over 160 years old? Why not just shoot round balls, that the gun was designed for?

good question I mean i like to shoot some stout loads but adding in that extra bullet mass
realy kicks things up a couple of notches.

and wasnt the walker prone to this even back then?

 

[kituwa]

Cap and ball revolvers were not designed for just round balls. From what i read conicals were what was issued durring the civil war and many of them were quite heavy.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

A few years back, I ordered an 1862 pocket police. It has a fluted cylinder and the chamber walls around the exterior of the cylinder are so thin, it is scary. To think that all the chamber pressure is held back by a 1/16th of an inch of steel is amazing in itself. If a muzzleloader pistol had such a thin span between the charge and the exterior, we would scream faulty design.

Then add a hot substitute powder and an elongated extra heavy bullet and high pressures are inevitable.

One of the first cap and ball revolvers I ever saw was an Italian Walker with half the cylinder blown off. 2 chambers gone completely

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Cap and ball revolvers were not designed for just round balls. From what i read conicals were what was issued durring the civil war and many of them were quite heavy.

But a conical bullet had very little surface area contacting the bore, just the rear skirt. Take a close look at these antique conicals. Very little bearing surface against the bore, not much more than a round ball, which incidentally made them difficult to seat without them tipping. Adding all that surface area to a modern heavy bullet adds resistance to the bullet moving down the bore, which raises pressure. Much more than a traditional conical bullet would have. I suspect that is part of the reason the cylinder let go on this replica Walker.



Yes, the original Walkers were prone to blow up, but their cylinders were made of malleable iron, not modern alloy steel.

 

[RPRNY]

Very authentic. Blew up just like the originals.

Glad the fellow wasn't hurt.

My thoughts:

The bearing surface on the bullet is too long and it's weight too much for safe use in other than the ROA

Air space and detonation very likely given the chamber diameter vs bullet diameter.

If people will insist on boring out their cylinders, this will happen. ASM made a good looking revolver, I had one of their Walkers, but steel made by Bolshevik trades unionists in the 70s is not the best and the margin is too slim to risk making chamber walls thinner.

Bullet alloy? I bet it wasn't pure lead or 30:1 was it?

In my opinion, boolits for the Italian revolvers should be 200 grs or less and no harder than 8 BHN.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Wow...we're back in Oct. 1847 again. The chambers in my ASMs measure 4.5 cm (1.77 ") depth to the cylinder face. With a .675" oal bullet plus a .125" thick wad which was not done back in yesteryear, that leaves a .97" deep bore into which to load a 40 grain charge. Now let me get my emergency applesauce powder flask...dang I used it all up at the range the other day and filled it with Ranger .44 rye. Well I guess I'll take a nip or two and figure out the math tomorrow.
Anyway back in the day it was difficult to seat the original Walker needle nose picket bullets and there were anecdotal reports of bullets getting jammed up in the cylinders and barrels apparently causing overpressures resulting in burst cylinders and barrels. IMHO I would not think that modern metallurgy and bullet design would lead to the same result...pero quien sabe?

 

[kituwa]

Driftwood, i agree with you, most of the old bullets didnt have a lot of contact. I havnt see a pic of Rodwahs bullet that was fired in the walker but i have seen some pics of the others he had and they had wide lube grooves so really did not have a lot of contact ether. I very seriously doubt the bullets are what caused the cylinder to blow. Pretty sure it was a manufacture defect or most likely a bullet that was not seated against the powder.Of all the bullets i have used in a cap and ball, the only ones i have seen that really had a lot of bearing surface were the kaito bullets. Now the picket bullets that the Walker was originally designed for had very little bearing surface, pretty much just the thin band on the bottom and i cant imagine they even seated square in the chambers. Those older ASM guns did not have good quality control back then compared to the guns we get nowdays. I feel confadent that the newer guns have enough leway built in them that they can stand up to pretty much anything you can do to one if only useing black powder.