Bushmaster AR. Need experience!

[12Pump]

Ok, after doing more research than I probably should (enough to make my head spin and make me want to give up!), I went to a shop I haven't been to in quite awhile and there were 2 Bushmaster ARs there. Both were model XM15-E2S, but they were quite different.

One was used, had a really nice scope but I couldn't tell the brand. I think the store owner said it was Leopold (I'm not at all familiar with what to look for in scopes), a rubberized grip, metal tubular forearm, a non-collapsing standard stock, sling, and a 20" barrel. It was quite heavy too. Price was $1195 but the store owner offered to sell it to me for $850.

The other one was new and much simpler. No scope or sites, 4 position collapsible stock, 16" barrel, and had a short plastic forearm. Maybe the forearm should be called a barrel shroud or fore end. It was priced at $995 but the owner offered it to me for $775.

I came home and immediately tried looking up facts about these rifles online, but what I'm finding on my own is surprisingly limited. On Bushmaster's own site, they show 5 versions of the XM15, but only the 2nd one looks like the new one I saw, although the one I saw didn't have the 2 point mounting rail. The one online also claims to have a 6 position stock. The one at the store had a 4 position stock. The website's $1391 MSRP also makes me doubt it's the same one.

The Bushmaster website didn't have an XM15 version with a 20" barrel. I imagine that rifle was customized by it's previous owner.

I guess what I'd like input about is:
Is Bushmaster a good brand for my first AR? It would be for HD and maybe more if law and order ever had a major breakdown.

Is this particular model a good one? Does the fact that certain things more expensive ARs have such as "properly staked" bolt carrier are not there make a big difference? (Improperly staked doesn't sound good!)

Also, the owner lowering the prices makes me wonder. Are these guns ones nobody likes (for good reason) and now he wants to just get rid of them? Are the prices he offered good prices? Oh yeah, and about that used 20" AR with the nice scope--the owner claimed that the scope itself is worth about $400. Come on! Does that mean if the scope wasn't there, the rest of the rifle is only worth another $450? It just makes me a little suspicious, like maybe he's not being totally honest. But I have no way to know for sure.

I'd just like to hear what others here have to say since the only conversation about it so far has only been between myself and the store owner. I need impartial advice!

 

[hatt]

I wouldn't buy a Bushmaster with everything that's out there now.

Check out Palmetto State Armory. Tons of sales. You can put your lower together yourself. Parts are likely going to be of higher quality than Bushmaster.

If you don't want to fool with that and your budget allows go to Walmart and pick up a Colt for $1100. Hard to go wrong there.

 

[Tommygunn]

Bushmaster is sort of middle-of-the-road.
If the weapon is a carbine style gun it should have M-4 feed ramps, and Bushies do not generally have them. If you break the action and look at the barrel you well note the inside has a barrel extension that has the locks that mate with the bolt. There should be two "valleys" cut into them -- two ramps at the bottom that intercept the incoming round's nose and cause it to rise up so the round can be chambered. An M4 ramp will extend beyond the barrel extension into the reciever, making the feeding more reliable in a M-4.
Bushmaster is not as good as topline (Noveske, Colt) insofar as properly staking the gaskey. This is a small tube-like appendage found on top of the bolt carrier. You will note it is attached by two small hex screws. On each side of the screws there should be deeply inset stakings to assure that vibrations don't loosen the gaskey because this will cause jams.
Bushmaster doesn't parkerize under the front sight base. High end makers do. This is not a problem if you never move the front sight.
The buffer is not likely an H2. The carbine AR uses them....but if it works OK with the one that comes in it, it's no big deal.
The Bushmaster's bolt won't be marked MPI for "magnetic Particle Inspection." That means it was made as part of a batch of bolts and only some were tested, not all.
This doesn't mean the bolt IS defective but companies that MPI all their bolts mark them.
There's a few other things. There's a M-4 "mil spec" chart out there on websites dealing with the AR that show what is "mil spec" and not about various brands.
OTOH people buy Bushmasters and use them and like them and apparantly have no problems with them so a lot of people will tell you not to get overly obsessed with the M-4 mil spec chart.

EDIT: "If you don't want to fool with that and your budget allows go to Walmart and pick up a Colt for $1100. Hard to go wrong there. "~~ hatt. Yeah, that pretty much says it, really.

 

[12Pump]

I wouldn't buy a Bushmaster with everything that's out there now.

Check out Palmetto State Armory. Tons of sales. You can put your lower together yourself. Parts are likely going to be of higher quality than Bushmaster.

If you don't want to fool with that and your budget allows go to Walmart and pick up a Colt for $1100. Hard to go wrong there.

Is Bushmaster really not good, even for a first AR for someone who isn't a "serious" shooter?

 

[Tommygunn]

Bushmaster is OK for a new shooter.
However for very little more $$ you can get a Colt or another better brand that will have the proper staked gaskey and M4 ramps and such and will be more reliable and last longer.
I wouldn't say Bushmaster is "not good," I would say that with a purchase like that for a little more $$ it makes sense to get the better gun especially if like the OP says you think it might be used in an emergency situation.

 

[Bobson]

They aren't bad. You won't get the higher standard of quality you would with a Colt, for 200 bucks more. Like others have said, most people who buy Bushmaster are probably pleased. I've got a BIL with two ARs who would jump at buying a Bushmaster, and he would praise it constantly. I don't own any AR15, and I would rather have it this way than to buy a Bushmaster. Its not because a Bushmaster is crap. Its because I don't want to spend $800 on something mediocre when I could spend $1050 and get the standard by which most others are measured. When I'm ready for an AR, it'll be a Colt.

TL;DR - It's probably perfectly fine, but its not a Colt.

 

[12Pump]

There's a M-4 "mil spec" chart out there on websites dealing with the AR that show what is "mil spec" and not about various brands.
OTOH people buy Bushmasters and use them and like them and apparantly have no problems with them so a lot of people will tell you not to get overly obsessed with the M-4 mil spec chart.

I actually did see that, which is what made me a little concerned about all the things that were missing from the Bushmasters, and others. But since these other brands, including Bushmaster, have been around for so long, I also wondered if all those things were really necessary, or just nice things to have.
I saved a copy of the chart but can't seem to post it here.

 

[hatt]

Bushmaster will be fine to take to the range. You can stake the key yourself and upgrade the extractor spring and put in the proper insert. It'll have a 1 in 9 twist. Which isn't a problem unless you're wanting to shoot 75 grain+ bullets. It may or may not stabilize those.

 

[12Pump]

Its not because a Bushmaster is crap. Its because I don't want to spend $800 on something mediocre when I could spend $1050 and get the standard by which most others are measured. When I'm ready for an AR, it'll be a Colt.

Maybe you're right. I think they might have the Colt 6920 at my Walmart. I thought I saw it once for $1097, which is $325 more than the new BM at the LGS.

 

[mic_poo]

My BM has been fine for thousands of rounds ... range, single day carbine classes, one multiple day class.

 

[Quentin]

Bushmaster's biggest problem is you can buy a much better PSA for about the same money. A year ago this wasn't so well known but today the word is getting out. I hope this eventually forces BM, DPMS, Windham, etc. to improve quality.

 

[Black Butte]

Unless you're one of those people who refuse to go grocery shopping in anything less than a McLaren F1, the Bushmaster will serve you just fine if you can get it for the right price.

 

[12Pump]

Its not because a Bushmaster is crap. Its because I don't want to spend $800 on something mediocre when I could spend $1050 and get the standard by which most others are measured. When I'm ready for an AR, it'll be a Colt.

I checked PSA and all, or almost all of their ARs are out of stock. Besides, if I were to decide to spend that much money, I'd rather it be local so I can actually see it and feel it first. Also, people talk so much about just building an AR, but I looked into that and it seems like a real hassle, unless you're just talking about getting an upper and lower and putting them together. Some people even deride builds as "frankenguns". Personally, I don't think I'd even trust a rifle I built myself over one built by a factory that is experienced in doing so.

 

[Dr.Rob]

CDNN has new Armalites and Bushmasters for under 850 today. Used Colt HBar for 800. Prices are coming down.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I have been issued a Bushmaster for the past 12+ years and have never had problem.

 

[12Pump]

CDNN has new Armalites and Bushmasters for under 850 today. Used Colt HBar for 800. Prices are coming down.

They don't seem to be coming down where I live. In some cases they're going up a little. I guess I could just give it some more time. But with the gov getting so antsy over every new mass shooting that happens, I can see prices heading upward again.

 

[justice06rr]

Bushmaster is decent when it comes to AR15's. If this is your first one, and you are a casual shooter and not a serious competitor/operator, the standard Bushmaster Carbine with the 16inch barrel should serve you fine.

From the 2 rifles you described in your first post, it seems the 20inch AR is possibly a customized rifle if it has a metal tubular handguard and A2 stock as you described.

The second one seems to be their standard Carbine with a 16inch barrel and M4 stock. Its a decent price for $775 but you will have to add iron sights or an optic.

I've owned a Bushmaster M4A3 Patrolman's Carbine before as my first AR15 and it was a good basic rifle for someone new to AR15's. Of course you can buy better rifles if you shop around a little bit. The Colt6920 is usually the best AR to start with and sells for $1097 at Walmart if you can find it. Other brands like BCM, Daniel Defense, or even Palmetto are great options too.

 

[Sapper771]

I have owned three Bushmasters over the years. They all worked.

I would be shopping around. Comparing prices and such. Looking online for better deals. Where I live, you go into one shop and they have a PSA base model AR for $1200. You go to another shop on the other side of town and find the same AR for $700-$800.

My personal opinion........its hard to beat a Colt 6920 for $1097 from Walmart.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Buy a Stag Arms AR-15 from Bud's Gunshop online for $825 SHIPPED...
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...d/411545225/STAG+SA1+Right+Hand+A3+STD+SAFETY

 

[LebbenB]

A question you need to ask yourself is, "How often will I shoot my AR?" If the answer is "Not much" or "Every once and awhile," the Bushmaster will work well for you. If you plan on following a more rigorous firing schedule, you may want to look at some other brands such as S&W, BCM or Colt's.

Most Bushmasters that come off the production line will work and every company let's a lemon squeak through now and again. It's just that your chances of getting a bad one are much higher with Bushmaster/DPMS than with other brands.

Bushmasters tend to be less expensive than it's competitors. In the main, this comes from the corners cut during production - the staking of the aforementioned gas key, for instance - as well as choice of materials/parts and QA-QC. Top tier producers are top tier because they do a better job sweating the details. This results in a more expensive rifle, but the consumer's chance of getting "a bad one" are greatly reduced.


If you are on a budget, and only the rifles you mention are within it, then go for it. If not, look around a little bit more and do some research above and beyond "the chart."

But to quote my dear departed Granddad, "Buy once, cry once."

 

[hentown]

I'm just not going to wade through that first post, as I just can't make myself read 1000 words, when 100 would have done the job. However, I can say that Bushmaster, at one time, made a fine rifle. Can't speak to the "fake" Bushmasters being made now, though. They're probably fine.

 

[Outlaw Man]

Without seeing the first one, it's hard to say. Depending on what the previous owner did (improvements to the BCG, good barrel, etc.), it could be a decent deal. Of course, if he cheaped out, he actually hurt the value of the gun. Just being a Leopold scope doesn't help. They range in price from $200 to well over $1000 new.

The second one? That's a fair price - not anything outstanding.

For the same money, and without having seen the "improvements" on the 20" model, I'd be inclined to shop around for a S&W or a PSA. You should be able to find either for very close to that price if you're patient.

For a home defense weapon, I don't think I'd slack on the quality. S&W/PSA would be my bare minimum, and I'd be looking closely at Colt, BCM and a few others. The money you expend on accessories, ammo and classes should far outweigh the extra couple hundred bucks for the base rifle, so I wouldn't pinch pennies here, unless you absolutely have to.

 

[hatt]

I checked PSA and all, or almost all of their ARs are out of stock. Besides, if I were to decide to spend that much money, I'd rather it be local so I can actually see it and feel it first. Also, people talk so much about just building an AR, but I looked into that and it seems like a real hassle, unless you're just talking about getting an upper and lower and putting them together. Some people even deride builds as "frankenguns". Personally, I don't think I'd even trust a rifle I built myself over one built by a factory that is experienced in doing so.

PSA has a complete daily deal mid length upper for $400. Complete blemished lower for $190. I'd take that all day over a $800 Bushmaster that's likely inferior in every way.

 

[jrdolall]

There's nothing wrong with Bushmaster for most people. Mid to low level "starter" rifle but for most of us that is fine. If you plan to take it out and run 50 rounds or so through it once a month then it will serve you fine. Same with a DPMS Oracle that is $619 at Walmart right now. It is a low end AR but will last you for many years of plinking at the range.

I seldom agree with those that say "save for a while and spend $250 more". There is no doubt in my mind that Colt makes a higher quality weapon that is probably going to be more dependable in the long term but is it worth spending more money for a gun that is really just going to be a toy? I have two Colt ARs and they are great guns. I do NOT own a Bushmaster but have shot a couple of them in the past with no issues. I have a DPMS that works just fine as well. Buy what you can afford and what fits your purpose. If you are going to have this as a primary HD weapon or looking for accuracy at 300 yards or plan to run thousands of rounds through it per month then definitely go with one of the higher end guns.

 

[Woodworker74]

At the risk of being shunned, I own not just a Bushmaster, but the most slighted of all, the Carbon15. I am planning on replacing the upper receiver at some point because I'm not convinced the rail is very stable for the long haul. That being said, it has never had a single issue. I am also curious about all this talk about the gas keys not being staked on BM's. Are they poorly or improperly staked, or not staked at all? My gas key sure as heck is staked. All this being said, I bought what I could afford at the time, and am currently building a much "higher end" one from components. I don't, however, regret buying the BM and really have a lot of fun shooting it. (Mine anyway, is pretty darned accurate to boot).