Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

business has a sign that says "no guns" but its not the state adopted sign?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by hobgob, Apr 30, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. hobgob

    hobgob Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    kansas
    So I just got my CCW permit and have been carrying for the last 2 days. Today I came across a local natural foods grocery store that had on their door a sign that was white text that said something to effect of "no shoes, no sirt, no service" then right under that it said "no guns." In KS you have to have the image of the gun with the slash through and the text has to be seperate from the image. Too play it safe, I had my bro go inside to get what we needed. However had I carried in that place, whould I have been breaking any law?
     
  2. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    43,850
    Location:
    Terlingua, TX; Thomasville,GA
    Well, you offered: "In KS you have to have the image of the gun with the slash through and the text has to be seperate from the image." The store, per your statement, is not in compliance with Kansas law.

    However, if a storeperson discovers that you are carrying, they can ask you to leave and be in full accord with the law. No difference from a bartender 86ing a drunk.
     
  3. RNB65

    RNB65 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    4,056
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    The problem with trying to bypass the intent of a law by using a technicality is that the judge may decide that your technicality is irrelevant.
    -
     
  4. mekender

    mekender Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,255
    if state law specifies that the sign must have specific dimensions or characters... the judge would be overstepping his authority to decide that law doesnt matter...

    and that is assuming that there isnt any case history that backs up the state law specifics
     
  5. bogie

    bogie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    9,569
    Location:
    St. Louis, in the Don't Show Me state
    Guys, what those signs say, whether they are "legal" or not, is "We do not want your business, because we think you are more dangerous than criminals who will ignore our signs." Point that out to the owners/managers - those folks are NOT psychic...
     
  6. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,041
    Location:
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    It's the judges who should live in fear of the electorate, not we of them.

    I don't ever do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots.
     
  7. insidious_calm

    insidious_calm Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2004
    Messages:
    337
    Hobgob....

    May I direct you to the packet you recieved in your class titled "Legal issues related to the use of deadly force" and the page with KSA 21-3721 on it.


    The question you have to ask yourself is do you think the DA in your county would prosecute it. I am not aware of any successful prosecution for trespass in violation of a sign only. For that matter I'm not even aware of any attempts at it, BUT I was told by Chuck Sexton that students should not expect any support from the the AG's office in that circumstance. They clearly frown on it.

    Have you considered talking to the owner? I also doubt that you would be noticed at all if you are reasonably discreet in your carry. I guess the question boils down to are you willing to be the test case? I'm not a lawyer. I am a Kansas CCH instructor, and I advise my students against this. YMMV


    I.C.
     
  8. hobgob

    hobgob Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    kansas
    Thank you Insidious calm... I had forgotten to check that packet. I went straight to the AG website to see what they said. They simply gave the information about what a proper sign should look like. Somewhat helpful.
    One of the main questions I have been asking myself is whether or not I should inform the business of their error. They won't be getting any of my business in the future unless they change their anti gun policy!
     
  9. divemedic

    divemedic Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2007
    Messages:
    1,462
    Location:
    30 minute drive from Disney World
    That law would likely not apply here. trespass does not work that way. I do not have the applicable laws/cases in front of me, but a sign that reads "no shoes, no shirt, no guns" does not carry the force of law for trespassing purposes.

    Now, of the owner/manager/staff asks you to leave, you must leave, or you are committing armed trespassing.
     
  10. Schutzen

    Schutzen Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    266
    Location:
    Far Western Kentucky
    Hobgob,

    Your post #8 is finally getting the idea. Vote with your checkbook. Send the business a nice, respectful letter stating that in the past you enjoyed doing business with them, but because of their "new" policy of no firearms on the premises you will no longer be trading with them. I usually include a statement that I am a CDW permit holder and I may or may not be carrying a firearm at any given time. However as a responsible citizen, part of my strategy for leading a safe life is to avoid "high risk" areas when possible. I chose not to frequent business that post as "CDW Free" because I believe this is an open statement to criminals that establishment is a "risk free zone" for criminal activity and therefore is a “high risk zone” for myself and my family.

    While a letter like this may not change the owner/manager’s opinion of firearms, it will give a reasonable person cause to re-think the posting of an establishment as a “CDW Free”/”Criminal Activity Risk Free” zone.
     
  11. jaholder1971

    jaholder1971 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,302
    Location:
    thehighroad.us
    I.C.,

    I asked Chuck Sexton about this during the KSRA business meeting last year and he told me that no, cities and counties could not enforce criminal tresspassing for simply carrying concealed, that Preemption allowed for the misdemeanor charge of carrying into a properly posted place only.

    In the political climate in Topeka right now, I would not expect any support in any CCW related defense from the AG's office, nor would I completely trust their advice.
     
  12. TAB

    TAB Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,475
    I am a firm beleaver in respecting the wishes of others. I also beleave that those that say "concealed means concealed" are doing alot of damage to the "IMO" of the general public when it comes to CCWs
     
  13. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,302
    Location:
    Ft. Worth
    If it's really concealed how will the general public ever know?

    If the law says signs must be specific, and a gun owner/CCW holder follows the law by keeping his mouth shut and keeping the gun concealed what does that show the general public other than once again we are law abiding folks just minding our own business?

    I'm not scared of that opinion at all.
     
  14. TAB

    TAB Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,475
    No, one ever by mistake reveals they are carrying, just like no one but gun lovers read THR... In many case people are expressly saying they WOULD and DO break the law.

    tell me how that does not cast a shadow on the rest of the commuity?
     
  15. rr2241tx

    rr2241tx Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    194
    Shop Owner's Perspective

    This isn't KS but TX law has the same/similar signage language. Personally, I welcome law-abiding concealed carriers and make no secret about it. One condition though, if you're carrying when you come in, you may be asked to show it so it can be admired. I'd rather have a shop full of armed customers than a punk with a shiv. I wish TX was an open carry state.

    rr2241tx
     
  16. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,302
    Location:
    Ft. Worth
    Because as we've seen in this thread here, it is not clearly a violation of the law to carry in this business because their signage is incorrect.

    So, to carry concealed anyway when you are not in violation of the law is a non issue, not sure why you'd want to make it one.
    You are advancing the straw man position of what if it was illegal, but it doesn't appear to be in this case. Talking about what some random DA might do is silly. Is it a good idea in this case? Who knows, but it doesn't appear to be overtly illegal.

    That said, the best course always is to refuse to do business with places like this, and be sure to let them know why. They might very well change their mind if presented with a reasonable discussion.

    But there's no reason to hide from the general public that fact that we know and obey the law. I don't see where anyone here as advocated breaking the law.
     
  17. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,128
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Why would you be so glad to contribute money to a bigot's till, that you should be worried only about whether the sign is lawful?

    It is the intent of the sign that matters, and not its legality. You, and your money, are not wanted there.
     
  18. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,302
    Location:
    Ft. Worth
    Because sometimes there are places that you just need to get into during the course of the day and you may have to enter places you don't want to patronize but you have no choice.

    If my customer wants to eat at Pizza Hut I take him to Pizza Hut, even though I don't like Pizza Hut.

    There are times it's just unavoidable, but as long as it's legal you just do what you have to do.
     
  19. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,128
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I grant you there may be such places where there is such a need that one needs to give money to an anti-rights store owner. I have been fortunate enough, or perhaps just stubborn enough, not to have had such a pressing need that I had to ignore a "no gun" sign to spend money at a bigot's store. What are those places in your life, where you have done what you have had to do, and ignored the non-legally-binding sign, and spent your money, that there was no alternative open to you that respected your rights?
     
  20. mec

    mec Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    4,460
    Texas law specifies that for criminal trespass with a concealed handgun to kick in, there must be proper notice- either verbal or with a very specifically defined sign. gun/red/circle/slash or " no guns allowed" do not create a violation.

    At one time, the state rifle association kept a list of business that do post legal and binding anti chl signs. This chiefly helped members and other interested parties avoid shopping in those businesses if they wished to do so. I tried to routinely add a local business to that list but the the state association apparently has lost interest. the respondent didn't seem to know about the list (still on the web page at that time), delivered an unnecessary lecture about property rights and then ignored my report.

    when the renewal notice came around, I ignored that also.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page