But in the end gun control is not the answer it’s crime control.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by TheFederalistWeasel, Mar 24, 2005.

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  1. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    This was actually a response to a post in the general gun forum but it took on so much of a life all it’s own I felt like it deserved discussion on it’s own, not taking away from the original authors post so I decided to post it here in legal and political.




    Having been in LE for many years I’ve seen the worst of people and I’ve seen what I believe was the best of people.

    I’ve NEVER locked up a CHL holder for any crime, except the rare traffic ticket, which in GA is technically an arrest under the strictest definition of the law but still no one went to jail just a fine.

    Everyone I’ve locked up with a weapon on them usually were already breaking the law, meaning that they were in violation of the law just by having the weapon, already a felon, on probation etc…

    And, not all that amazing a good number of the guns we get are stolen, imagine that.

    Taking away guns is not the answer, even for the criminals, just yesterday we chased down a black male who was using a shovel to smack people down then rob them of their wallet.

    Shovels now mind you, not a pistol, not a knife but a shovel.

    People who intend on doing others harm as a way of making a living will always find a weapon. If it’s not a gun it will be a knife, if it’s not a knife it will be a jailhouse homemade shank and if not that it will be another guy wielding a shovel or some other type of common yard tool.

    Hell, these days we are finding more and more that drugged up, unarmed combat is becoming the norm for the day.

    Get some decent sized guy on high crack and you have your hands full, they do not respond to pepper spray, infact the last guy we sprayed just wiped it off and kept yelling at me how he was going to fu** us up. It took four of us to subdue him.

    Crack combined with alcohol tend to produce the most violent types I’ve seen, but I’ve yet to deal with anyone on PCP.

    We deal mainly with black males and the occasional black female and they tend to migrate to crack and cheap crack at that where “other†stuff is used in the baking process besides cocaine and baking soda to increase the amount to be sold. When people mix cocaine and alcohol they are compounding the danger each drug poses and inadvertently forming a complex chemical reaction within their bodies. What happens is that the human liver combines cocaine and alcohol and manufactures a third substance called coca ethylene that strengthens cocaine's euphoric effects, while potentially increasing the risk of sudden death.

    White males and female tend to use METH and everyone smokes weed.




    But in the end gun control is not the answer it’s crime control.

    First just legalize weed, adjust and apply the DUI and public intoxication laws to its use.

    Do away completely with probation and parole, 100% of the sentence must be served. Build more jails if needed but I guarantee you that once the word hits the street that you are going to rot away in jail if you do the crime the wend result will be less people going to jail because less people will do the crime, because now it is a deterrence and not just a 5 year stint on probation for that burglary charge under the first offender act, then a clean slate so you can do it all over again!

    Begin hammering the hell out of felony property and violent crimes, make jail very undesirable, and make people think about the idea of going to or returning to jail. Make jail a very harsh punishment and not just a way of life for certain people in our society.

    Bring back the chain gangs and forced labor.

    Apply felling felon laws to anyone who endeavors to escape from any jail or correctional facility.

    Educate the inmates to this fact and tell hem up front you escape and we will kill you, resist any officer while in jail and if you are lucky you will still be conscious and have brain activity when you arrive at the ER.

    CCW!!!

    Implement make my days laws, self defense against violent offender laws and educate EVERYONE to the fact that if you threaten, rob or otherwise place someone in mortal fear of life or limb, they will kill your @$$ and the courts will give them an attaboy for it.

    Make it a felony to run from the police for ANY underlying crime you may have committed. Drive w/o a license and run from the police, you run the risk of them using deadly force against you to end the chase. One or two of your homeboys or cousin’s run for stupid stuff and end up dead and the word will spread fast and that crap will stop.

    Implement mandatory sentences for certain crimes such as death for murder, bank robbery, aggravated kidnapping and forcible felony rape.

    Life in prison for such aggravated crimes as armed robbery involving a weapon and carjacking involving a weapon.

    Start slamming people for 25 years each time they burglarize your home and make them serve every last day, hour and minute of the sentence.

    Second offence and you go away for 50 years and a guaranteed state paid funeral.

    It’s not that hard to imagine that after several years of this type of law enforcement and justice that most criminals would definitely find another line of work die in the commission of a crime or just kick the bucket in jail, now just what type of effect it would have overall on the fabric of society as a whole could be debated, it may create a larger class of people on welfare, if so screw’em 5 years and that’s it, no more free government stuff, find work or die I don’t care which.

    The answer is clear but no one has the balls to suggest it because certain elements on our society would immediately cry racism backing up their claim with statistics we already have that most crime is committed by certain people not all people as they would want you to believe.

    Oh yeah jail the ACLU and abolish affirmative action in all it’s forms.


    :fire:
     
  2. Too Many Choices!?

    Too Many Choices!? Member

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    Some good ideas and others make me say you need to......Switch ot decaf!

    :)
     
  3. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    Oh yeah…

    Quit calling and involving the law with every little petty ante problem you have.

    Take care of your own children, don’t call me everytime your 11-year-old talks back or your 15-year-old refuses to get out of bed and go to school.

    Return to the long forgotten time when you saw the law coming you knew the SHFT and some body was going to jail.
     
  4. EghtySx

    EghtySx Member

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    I am with you one-hundred percent. I just don't understand why it is so hard a concept to grasp. Punish criminals, leave honest citizens alone. It seems so simple. It works, has been proven many times in various places around the world at various times in history. :banghead:

    The only thing I can think of is that they want the criminals out, they want to punish us all. The rules they make aren't for them anyway...

    ...I'm getting frustrated thinking about it. Someone splain it to me. Why don't they punish the criminals and leave the rest of us alone?
     
  5. Ktulu

    Ktulu Member

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    But in the end gun control is not the answer...

    This is so blatantly obvious one wonders what the gun grabbers are really trying to accomplish.
     
  6. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    I fully believe it’s all about victim status, in the eyes of present day liberals everyone must be a victim of something to fully be apart of society.

    And in their eyes everyone is a victim of something, it may be a disability or maybe you are too short by cultural standards, nevertheless you are a victim.

    They are obsessed with it, criminals are not actually criminals, they are unfortunate victims who were pushed by an uncaring, uncompromising society to resort to crime just to make a living when no one would give this 4th grade educated, always drunk, never bathed in his life fool who cannot speak correct English, or the local 19-year-old wannabe gangster who constantly looks like he wants to fight and cannot string together a complete sentence in English.


    :(
     
  7. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    It's no secret. They want total civilian disarmament, they don't care about crime, that's just a red herring to confuse the sheep.
     
  8. George S.

    George S. Member

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    Getting tough on crime is a very reasonable thing to do. Unfortuantely, the public pays for that in having to build new jails and prisions and hiring correctional officers to keep thing under (some level of) control.

    The courts have to change their stance on punishment. Because there is no cheap and easy way to hold criminals today, the courts dole out lesser sentences to those who, IMHO, really need to be in jail for a long time. I would have to think there are many judges who absolutely hate the idea of having to impose lesser sentences for crimes simply because there is either no place to hold criminals for long periods or because the sentencing guidelines are just too lienient for the crime.

    Stiffer sentences cost more money and sometimes people are not willing to pay for it. A local jail building bond got defeated recently simply because of the cost to build the facility. The county jail has inmates sleeping on floors in hallways simply because there is no room. Some inmates are transported to othe cities where space ia available, but it costs more to hold them somewhere else than keeping them locally. Then you have the ACLU crying that families cannot visit their relatives in jail because they are now across the state.

    And there are laws that state legislatures pass that require early release of inmates simply because of overcrowding. Supposendly these laws are pointed at non-violent or first-time offenders, but violent offenders get released too if the jail headcounts go too high. These kind of laws need to be simply removed from the books but again the ACLU gets their neck in the door and the courts and legislators bow to their whining and idiotic lawsuits.

    This sort of thinking and legal opinions are what needs to be changed. Once that happens, then stiffer penalties can be applied to crimes. DUI is one example. There are too many 3 and 4-time DUI offenders still out on the street driving around. Even though the penalties for DUI are stiff and some states specifiy mandatory jail time, if there is no "room at the inn" for them they are let go. Only to drink and drive again. And injure or kill.

    I do not totally agree with locking up non-violent offenders. Take Martha Stewart for example. She really had no business being in jail. What should happen in cases like hers (crimes like fraud, embezzlement and such) is to confiscate all money and/or property gained from the crime. No appeal, hand it over now. All of it. Then tack on a monetary fine that is equal to all of the assets owned by the person convicted, again without appeal. Use that money to build jails and run them. Of course the ACLU would go ballistic, but that's the nature of the liberal thinking in the criminal justice system today.
     
  9. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

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    FW, this gets my vote for best post of the year. :cool:

    Sawdust
     
  10. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    Leaving aside the actual modus operandi for implementation - the main thing is its inate logic.

    Hard to conceive of anyone not seeing the patently obvious rationality of the concept - tho these days you may be forgiven for wondering why so many apparently do not want to see it.
     
  11. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    Nice plan...
    Might work...
    If we as a society were willing to accept the consequences of

    LIVING IN A FREAKING POLICE STATE!

    Like I said, nice plan but in the real world the potential for abuse far outweighs the potential for benefit IMO. In a perfect world where LEO's are blessed with perfect judgement, always behave correctly, aren't on power trips and the Courts had perfect knowledge of all relevant events and were always fair and just, it might work. But then we don't live in a perfect world - do we?

    Now a plan that could keep the cops from shooting innocent folks that look guilty or prison guards from killing prisoners they just don't like or all the other potential abuses might be worth a look.

    Otherwise that plan is just another draconian, freedom sucking, civil rights abusing list of police powers just begging to be abused.
     
  12. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    Amazing…

    Everything I am advocating would be done in the courts and not on the street, you would still have due process and no changes to the existing constitution except a more open look at the second amendment and a more open look at civilians using deadly force in more circumstances.

    Did you even read the post or just stop where I mentioned I was a cop?
     
  13. DSRUPTV

    DSRUPTV Member

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    Weasel I for one think you have hit the nail squarely on the head. Criminals know that prison is a joke and they will only serve a small portion of their time. No cable, no good food, no gyms, no free education... etc. Prison should be a punishment and not a free ride. Getting rid of all these luxuries would greatly lower the cost of prisons to tax payers and more could be built to solve problems of overcrowding. I think that overcrowding would only be a problem for a limited time though as criminals would start to decide to behave. Gun control does nothing to stop criminals from using guns, but you can bet your bottom dollar if they knew they would be severly punished it would.
     
  14. The Freeholder

    The Freeholder Member

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    Works for me

    So when are you going to run for President? :evil:
     
  15. io333

    io333 Member

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    TheFederalistWeasel,


    I don't know who the heck you are, but here is some truth for you:


    You are too f*cking smart to be involved in politics at all, let alone be a cop. Period. Go back to school and be a medical doctor or run a Fortune 500 company or something. If you don't, you are going to go nuts.


    I mean it.
     
  16. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    :D
     
  17. Unisaw

    Unisaw Member

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    Another vote for best post of the year. (BTW, what is a felling felon law?)
     
  18. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    Fleeing felon, guess before I go to medical school I need to brush up on my spull'in!

    ;)
     
  19. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    I don't have a thing against cops - they're a necessary part of our society because we don't live in a perfect world.

    AND - Yes - I read your whole post FW. It seemed obvious to me that your plan is ripe for abuse but since you don't believe so:
    Couldn't Agree more.
    Again I agree completely.
    One of the major ways that the correctional folks keep control in the prisons is by making it so that prisoners can get out earlier if they behave. Take that away and the potential for chaos looms clear.
    Who's gonna pay for 'em - you? We don't have enough money to support the prison system now. And where you going to put all these new jails? No one wants a prison in their neighborhood. It's a major fight to put one in anywhere. Hell man if the USA doesn't have the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world it's definitely somewhere in the top 5. All those prisons and still we have all this crime.
    Maybe but I doubt it. More likely is the scenario that if jails are as bad as you seem to want them to be the crooks will just do what ever they need to do to not get caught. I don't think many will choose to go straight. They're criminals after all. When confronted by the police more than likely they'll just shoot first and ask questions later and not just give up as you seem to imply they will. This IMO would become true even for petty criminals if they face a hell hole for many years for robbing a 7-11.
    Sorry - that dog just don't hunt. See above. Then of course there's that pesky 8th Amendment that seems to say that cruel punishment just ain't in the cards.
    That one works for me and seems to work in a number of southern jurisdictions and AZ. One for you.
    Can anyone say ABUSE OF POWER LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO HAPPEN! Oh and then there's that pesky constitution again that guarantees no one should be subject to loss of life or liberty without due process of law. DAMN!
    That's 2 you've gotten right.
    Can anyone say ABUSE OF POWER LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO HAPPEN! Oh and then there's that pesky constitution again that guarantees no one should be subject to loss of life or liberty without due process of law. DAMN!
    Been tried. Doesn't work. Takes the ability of judges and juries to apply extenuating circumstances to the sentencing phase. That's why we've got folks in jail for 20 years for having an ounce of marijuana on their person.
    You mean like the three strikes and you're out laws. They've been tried and they are being found to be lacking also. Again if a guy knows that if he gets caught he's going down he's gonna take heroic action to not get caught and that doesn't mean he's going straight.
    Yes actually it is hard to imagine. Criminals don't stop being criminals because of any law written on paper. They're predators pure and simple. They take what they want and use whatever means is available. Laws do nothing to stop them just like those silly signs on the front doors of businesses don't keep out folks with guns.
    Can anyone say POLICE STATE! And just to make it worse a police state surrounded by a dog eat dog social system.
    No the answer isn't clear - if it was crime would have been eliminated about 6000 years ago at the dawn of civilization. Your arguments reflect the anger that crime creates in good people. Your arguments appeal to the revenge instinct in all of us (did you know that revenge actually stimulates the pleasure center of the brain according to a recent study). Your arguments superficially seem like common sense but even the basest form of logic gives lie to them.
    Hmmm.... not a bad idea at all - oh wait that darn US constitution gets in the way again. Let's just scrap the darn thing and let knee jerk, screw it just put 'em all in jail and torture 'em crowd run the show.
     
  20. mbs357

    mbs357 Member

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    I like.
     
  21. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    Currently over 50% of the entire Department of Corrections Budget in the state of GA goes to nothing but funding the probation side of the house, and I find it hard to believe that GA would be unique on this particular fact.

    Most of the newer jails currently being built or those which have been constructed over the last few years were mostly built in rural out of the way counties which welcomed them in terms of government subsidies which became available and the jobs they created.

    Part of the reason we have such a high incarceration rate has to do with misdemeanor and non-violent drug convictions, some of the most draconian sentences out there. Plus according to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Standards well over 75% of all property crime is a direct result of the over all drug problem in this country, people steeling to support a habit.

    You can get 12 months in jail for possession of weed less than one ounce.

    Currently with cocaine the guidelines create a 100 to 1 ratio between crack and powder cocaine. In other words, the guidelines treat possession of 50 grams of crack cocaine the same as they treat possession of 5000 grams (5 kilograms) of powder cocaine.

    In many states they use the 100:1 guideline ratio, but some argue that is too high and now there is a move on state and federal level to go to a 20:1 ratio.

    Now look at this, in New York State the sentencing guidelines, if you possess 4 ounces of cocaine, well you might as well have committed a murder. Murder and possession of 4 ounces of cocaine are treated the same in New York State (with the exception of course that some murders may qualify for death sentence). It’s an A1 felony and you can get 25 years to LIFE!

    In Georgia, prescription narcotics… The unlawful manufacture, delivery, distribution, dispensing, possession with the intention to distribute, or sale of a non-controlled substance in violation of this Code section is a felony and, upon conviction thereof, such person shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years or by a fine not to exceed $25,000.00, or both.




    Now you speak of cruel and unusual punishment when I say hammer those who commit felony property and violent crimes, make jail very undesirable, and make people think about the idea of going to or returning to jail. Make jail a very harsh punishment and not just a way of life for certain people in our society.

    But then you agree that you would like to see us bring back the chain gangs and forced labor.


    The system is busted and needs to be fixed, I know plenty of cops, lawyers and even a Superior Court Judge or two whom I’ve had the chance to chat about this and they feel the same way, the system is being crushed under it’s own weight and needs to be fixed.
     
  22. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    On that we agree 100%...

    I just don't believe the solution is as easy as you seem to believe it is.
     
  23. Phantom Warrior

    Phantom Warrior Member

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    I have to agree with some of the stuff Werewolf is saying. Two points in particular.

    One, the whole issue of use of force and abusive behavior. Has anyone seen Shawshank Redemption? Yeah, I thought so. If you are encouraging police to shoot people if they try to escape, shoot people if they try to resist, shoot people if they misbehave in jail, and shoot people if they try to break out of jail you are going to destroy professionalism among police and encourage people to run like hell because, hey, they got nothing to lose. We have to behave like civlized people if we want to avoid descending into brutality.

    On the other hand, some sanity does need to be injected into the process. Jail needs to become undesirable. I think some type of labor program would be an excellent idea. But more like the CCC than a Japanese prison camp. Restraint is still in order. And yes, get rid of cable and all the other fun stuff. But I think education programs are still a good idea. Give them some way to support themself on the outside besides a life of crime.


    Two, no parole and mandatory sentencing. Great idea. Yay for zero tolerance. That's a great plan. Lets create a law and give everyone the same punishment who even remotely falls under it. Zero tolerance is a knee jerk response to bad judges, just like the antis wanting to ban guns every time someone gets shot. Not every situation is the same. There are a lot of people that deserve to be punished and aren't, because of a dumb judge. Do something about the judge. But at the same time justice needs to be served, not just punishment. And justice isn't always the maximum penalty.




    If that's not the definition of a police state I'm not sure what is. Lethal force for not having a DL? We could shoot people for parking tickets too. I agree with some of your ideas, but I think you go way to far on the other half.
     
  24. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    I’m not trying to advocate the fix is easy; all I’m trying to present is the fact that the some of the fixes such as legalizing marijuana could be instituted now with little fanfare and that we could rethink our approach to handling criminals.

    Example, just last week a man known to our county born and raised, who has 7… not 1, not 2, not 3 but 7 burglary convictions was tried for what became conviction number 8, the judge game him 3.5 years in a detention center and added 10 years to his already comically long probation sentence he has and smacked him with a $1,500 fine.

    This guy should never see the light of day, IMO.

    How many more peoples houses does this guy have to bust into before we quit playing touch football and slam his @$$?

    This is the stuff I’m talking about.
     
  25. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    If that's not the definition

    The day is coming when it will be a felony to run from the law in GA; it already is in 25 states.

    I’m not advocating blasting people for driving while unlicensed what I am advocating is laying down the law and giving us the ability to immediately stop those who run from us for such stupid stuff as “I ain’t got no license, that be why I ranâ€.

    Give us the ability to end the chase before that person causes a traffic accident and kills your wife or daughter.

    In GA when you employ a PIT maneuver above 45 mph it is considered deadly force.

    Spike strips above 60 mph are considered deadly force.

    Intentionally spinning or making any contact with a veh. above 60 mph is deadly force.

    I’m not always advocating shooting as so many are quick to jump to when deadly force is mentioned, there are other issued which fall under deadly force we as LEO’s can employ but only in a select few situations.
     
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