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but wait, aren't COLTS the best thing since sliced bread?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by againstthagrane, Nov 20, 2009.

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  1. againstthagrane

    againstthagrane Member

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  2. RockyMtnTactical

    RockyMtnTactical Member

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    I don't know the details of this failure but it could be ammo related for all I know.

    Nothing is perfect, and everything breaks... eventually...
     
  3. Oro

    Oro Member

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    Because no one has ever seen a mis-loaded round? Factory or re-load?

    Seems like waiting for all the facts would be more prudent than spouting off against a brand or other shooting fans.
     
  4. SpeedAKL

    SpeedAKL Member

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    All rifles can break, Colts included...
     
  5. RonE

    RonE Member

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    The firearm blog failed to mention what ammunition was being used and what the conditions were, was the barrel plugged with mud for example.

    Any firearm can break, just use it improperly and of course, there are manufacturing defects.

    You don't have to send the rifle to Colt, I can tell you what happened........bad ammo or barrel obstruction.......Do you think Colt or any other manufacturer will report back that there seems to be a manufacturing problem?
     
  6. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    And to answer the question. Yes.
     
  7. dom1104

    dom1104 Member

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    It was factory XM193.

    There was no barrel obstruction that the operator was aware of. It happened on the second round fired from the prone position by a 325 lb man with a beard.

    He went back to his truck, grabbed a Sig 556 and finished the magpul carbine course.
     
  8. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    Makes you wonder what it would have looked like if it weren't a Colt, probably wouldn't have been able to find enough pieces to take a pic of.:neener::D
     
  9. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    Various other forums have already brought out the shooter was using XM193 rounds. The X designates the ammunition as not meeting milspec standards - military reject.

    It's not about the brand of weapon - using military reject ammo has it's potential problems. This stuff has been documented to have these results lately. This is another. Bad ammo in any gun is bad news. Good ammo in even a homebuilt AR parts assembly won't do that.

    I'd like to ask the Tier One users - if the only good weapons are built to milspec, WHY SHOOT REJECT AMMO? It's NOT Tier One milspec, and much more dangerous in use than a cheaper AR shooting good ammo.

    I'd like to see a ban on this lots use at carbine classes and ranges. Instructors just need to make the decision that some shooters can't. Not everyone is in the loop.

    Put the wrong set of components together in a cartridge, any gun will kaboom, regardless of the maker.
     
  10. CleverNickname

    CleverNickname Member

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    Just because [strike]Toyota[/strike] Colt makes a higher quality [strike]car[/strike] gun than [strike]Yugo or Lada[/strike] DPMS or Olympic doesn't mean it won't ever have problems, just that it's less likely.
     
  11. longdayjake

    longdayjake Member

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    Shoulda bought a Colt!!!! Oh wait... he did!!!! The thing that gets me with posts like this is that because its a colt the colt lovers are blaming the ammunition. If it was another maker they would all have said thats what you get for not buying a colt. Aside from broken parts like extractors, bolts, or ejectors, my bet is that anything that will cause any brand AR to explode like this will cause all brands to explode in such a way.
     
  12. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    The maker in question has to document and test that they make parts to government standards.

    That has a lot to do with reliability, and whether those standards actually apply. Also, the company has to make a profit on the bid contract. They don't go any further out of their way than to ensure they meet contract conditions.

    Interpreting that as a guarantee of quality is up to the individual. I see it as government oversight the taxpayer gets their moneys worth. The maker meets a minimum standard.

    The government also buys mostly inexpensive cars for motor pool use - very few Mercedes Benz's. The public does not assume a Focus is equivalent, but on gun forums, similar misconceptions seem to abound. The Tier One builders list is trotted out, and all because they were contract suppliers. Notably absent from that list is GM Saginaw and FN, who is now also supplying the SCAR.

    Colt builds a contract rifle to military spec, and their customer service department handles things when they don't. It's not necessarily the acme of supreme quality some would like it to be. It's just been good business management on their part.
     
  13. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    Not directed towards you Clevernickname but....Colt makes a better 'quality' AR than DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic....!???! Right!

    Every manufacturer has their good stuff and their junk. Colt indeed makes a fine AR, but to say they(Colt) is the bestest or betterest is pure nonsense! lol

    Chevy Trucks are crap....I saw one on the side of the road once....yea, it was hooking up to that crapped out Toyota...so which one is junk? I mean they're both on the side of the road, right?

    A Colt exploded...now they are ALL junk...I'm not buying it! lol
    Probably ammo related...most people will say they were using factory ammo......
     
  14. Water-Man

    Water-Man Member

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    Colt is the gold standard of AR's. There are only two or three others in the same league.
     
  15. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    Colt is a supplier to government standards, just like Bushmaster, FN, and GM Saginaw.

    Gold standard doesn't exist - there is no milspec for that. If anything, SIG is regarded as making the highest quality assault rifles for a nations Army. I don't see the Swiss bending over backwards to buy Colts because of a demonstrated superiority.

    Nations buy a specified firearm to a contract standard and accept the lowest reasonable bid. All things considered, Colt was the cheapest. That has nothing to do with a superior level of quality, just a documented level of consistent adherence to standard.

    Many smaller makers can achieve higher levels of quality in their product, and do so. They can easily take the government minimums and improve the material quality, fabrication, and tighten tolerances to make a better, higher quality part. Noveske does that with barrels everyday. But, it's not milspec, because that standard is based on old technology and bureaucracy, not the quest for the highest quality. Just a minimum.

    Government standards mean M4's shoot to 2 MOA. That's run of the mil on the open market. Milspec also means 6-8 pound creepy triggers, another low point. Milspec currently accepts 3000 round barrel life. And milspec means that Colt's just meet minimum standards, just like toilet seats.

    If there is a gold standard, please specify where it is spelled out. The nature of the competitive bidding process pretty much eliminates any one offering it.
     
  16. Water-Man

    Water-Man Member

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    Comparison Chart of Major AR brands at M4Carbine.net
     
  17. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    That could be the problem right there. Reject ammo isn't your best option usually people.

    Bushmaster since when?

    You are half corrrect. the TDP is just a minimum. The problem is that almost no companies out there even MEET that minimum much less exceed it.
     
  18. atlanticfire

    atlanticfire Member

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    I don't buy into the Colt thing. I've handled hundreds of ARs, colt is just another player in the game. Nothing great about them.
     
  19. rossiscratch

    rossiscratch Member

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    Interesting how all that works out isn't it.
     
  20. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Huh, a piece of machinery has failed. Wow, that's never happened before.

    Guess we should all sell our rifles just in case.

    I'm willing to bet you can find a failure in just about every machine ever made by man. Does that mean they all have a design flaw or are not well built?

    Guess I'm not really sure what the point is here.

    That doesn't say much. There is no SAAMI spec for that load. The load may or may not meet the NATO specs for M193, but there is no requirement for it to do so.

    It could be the rifle, it could be the ammo, it could be an obstruction in the barrel, it could be MANY things.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  21. Kentucky

    Kentucky Member

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    Yeah, because you can tell everything you need to know about a rifle by handling it. Do you even realize how ignorant that sounded?
     
  22. Avenger29

    Avenger29 Member

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    It's quite obvious that some of you just can't wait to get on the Colt bashing FAILtrain when this is clearly an ammunition issue that would have affected your own pet brand equally. Typically, issues like this in an AR cause the magazine to blow out, but sometimes stuff like this happens.

    kBooms happen. Guns break. Deal with it.
     
  23. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    You are half corrrect. the TDP is just a minimum. The problem is that almost no companies out there even MEET that minimum much less exceed it.

    So, all those FN's in service don't meet the TDP and aren't milspec?

    I'm not here to bash Colt, and haven't been. And, yes, it is kinda suspect that Colt owns the TDP and very few others can bid the contract. Of course, there aren't that many players in the game who could tool up to build one, bid the cheapest, and have the propietary data they control.

    I heard this same worship when the subject of replacing the 1911 came up. The M9 is due for it's 25th anniversary in service. There are very few .45's on the job these days, and they are just milspec, too. But there are a lot of quality 1911 makers out there - Wilson, Kimber, etc. Using the same reasoning, they make substandard crap useless in combat.

    Go float that on a 1911 forum.

    Colt makes weapons to military standards - as I pointed out, milspec isn't your best buy on the market. Lots of makers are out there with better stuff. Even Colt plays with the configuration to be competitive - they only have loyalty to staying in business.

    If it means paying FN for rights to the TDP on the SCAR, or going out of business, they will. Optimizing shareholder value always trumps the fanbase of flavoraid drinkers. It's all about business, not reciprocal loyalty. They sold us down the river before.
     
  24. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    At what point did I mention FN? I was referring to the normal AR market where there are only a couple companies that bother to make a product that meet even those minimum specs.

    Colt held the TDP because that is how these systems work. there is nothing "suspect" about it. The time ran out and the .gov now holds the rights to the TDP which means other companies can choose to bid on it if they wish. And if they can produce a firearm that meets those specs then more power to them. The problem is that they choose not to.

    There is a common misconception that people don't like certain brands because they are not Colt. The brand doesn't really matter to most people as long s the company makes a quality product. I would buy a DPMS if they made a quality product and would not buy Colt if they produced crap. But that is not the case.

    Yes they do. BCM, Noveske, KAC, but they all also at least meet the minimum specs set forth. Once again this is something other brands don't seem capable of.
     
  25. Water-Man

    Water-Man Member

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    Tirod...You asked for info on Colt and I gave it to you. Now why don't you go read it and learn something!
     
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