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C&R "Bound Book"

Discussion in 'Legal' started by cbrgator, Jul 8, 2009.

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  1. cbrgator

    cbrgator Member

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    Does the C&R "Bound Book" actually have to be bound? Can I just print the record keeping pages off the internet and keep them in a 3 ring binder?
     
  2. Blackbeard

    Blackbeard Member

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    If you did, wouldn't that make them bound?
     
  3. MrFox

    MrFox Member

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    I keep mine in a three ring binder with the clear page protectors. I also keep copies of FFL's, drivers license, receipts, etc.

    If its related, I keep it.

    Also, I have a copy of it as back up and a burned disk containing pictures and information like serial numbers.

    Overkill? Maybe. CYOA!
     
  4. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Here's what I find:

    This is in a FAQ published by the Firearm Engravers Guild of America for their members.

    http://www.fega.com/members/batf.html

    I have seen this in other places too, that loose leaf is acceptable. Doesn't appear to actually be defined in the law, leaving it to one of those odd "It means whatever ATF says it means" things.

    Given that they now allow electronic recording, the "bound" idea seems to be fading.

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/rules/atf_ruling2008-2.pdf

    In part:

    Now, the requirements for the database are rather strict, but the point is that ATF says that printed pages from the database are required, and those would not be bound.


    So, you can make the argument fairly well that a 3 ring binder will be sufficient, not necessarily a truly "bound" book.

    Not a lawyer blah blah blah.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  5. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Member

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    I use printed pages in a 3-ring binder.
     
  6. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

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    The underlieing idea of a 'Bound Book', is that Pages may not be added or removed.
     
  7. illinois brass man

    illinois brass man Member

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    I am in Illinois not chicago
    I purchased a leather bound book for mine
     
  8. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Member

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    You can use a "bound" book.........or loose leaf pages. Either one works, and both are legal.
     
  9. Grizzly Adams

    Grizzly Adams Member

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    When I got my FFL in '79 I asked this question of three different agents. One said the book had to be "bound" and the other two said that loose leaf was sufficient. I went with the majority. When I let my license expire in '04, I sent my loose leaf "bound book" into BATFE and there was no problem.
     
  10. EOD Guy

    EOD Guy Member

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    I would like someone to show me where the term "bound book" appears in the regulation or in the law. The FAQs or index don't count.:evil:

    The official term is "Acquisition and Disposition Record".
     
  11. LickitySplit

    LickitySplit Member

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    3 ring binder is fine, or for roughly the same price as the binder, you can take the pages to Staples/Copy Cop/Office depot and have them put it together with spiral binding.
     
  12. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    The term bound record absolutely does appear in the law.

    I posted it above.

    27 CFR 478.125. This is for C&R but the wording is the same for other FFL types.

    And under the armor piercing ammo sales section:

    There is no question that the term "bound" appears in the law.

    That is the required TITLE of the pages.

    For C&R the required legal title is: "Firearms Collectors Acquisition and Disposition Record"

    Completely different section of the law from the section requiring it to be "bound".
     
  13. cbrgator

    cbrgator Member

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    So I guess I'll just go with a 3-ring binder then. I don't know...
     
  14. CajunBass

    CajunBass Member

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    That's all I've got.
     
  15. EOD Guy

    EOD Guy Member

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    No you didn't. Like I said, where is the term "bound book" in the regulation?

    :evil::evil:Just in case you missed my toung in cheek statement.:evil::evil:

    People assume that bound means permanenty bound which is not true. Even the "bound books" sold by most companies, such as Brownells are not permanenty bound but are held together by staples.
     
  16. SMMAssociates

    SMMAssociates Member

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    I expect the whole thing dates from before 3-ring binders were common.... Dunno....

    However, a "bound book" appears (IANAL) to mean one in which the pages are stitched to a cover, so that addition is impossible, and removal visible. It also avoids loose records in a shoe box or some such. Even with computer-printed records, serialization likely covers the "add or remove" problem.

    Over long periods of time, these things get kinda worn, though.... My club's range has a sign-in book of the "bound book" type I refer to above, with entries from the 70's. It's kinda ratty....

    As things stand today, machine readable, or at least easily scanned paper, would be better for ATF, but who knows....

    Regards,
     
  17. zoom6zoom

    zoom6zoom Member

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    Same here. Just make sure the pages are numbered.
     
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