C&R handgun question

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bfox

bfox

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Hi
I bought an Argentine Ballester Molina at the gunshow today .
I have to log it in my bound book right ?
Not sure when it was made but as far as I can tell
they stopped maked them in 1953 .
Is there a way to tell what year it was made ?

Thanks , Bill
 
They are correct, you do not have to list the year but you DO have to log it in. The Ballesters are difficult to date as records are somewhat sketchy. A search with Google or on Gunboards.com may return a site with ballpark dates just for your info. Again, the feds don't need it or want it as they are not only over 50yrs old but also NAMED on the C&R listings.

HTH,
Mike
 
Why would you need to log a gun not purchased using the license? I don't log C&R eligible guns that I bought in person. Even 001 FFL dealers aren't required to log a personal gun not obtained via the FFL (I was told this by both of the inspecting agents who visited me when I had an FFL). I have searched the ATF regs and I don't see where it says a gun purchased directly (as in a face to face sale) W/O using the license needs to be logged. If it specifically says that and I missed it please point it out.
 
I have searched the ATF regs and I don't see where it says a gun purchased directly (as in a face to face sale) W/O using the license needs to be logged. If it specifically says that and I missed it please point it out.
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27 CFR 178.125

Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each
licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and
disposition of firearms curios or relics.

I don't see where the regulation exempts C&R acquisitions where the license is not used. Once you are a licensed collector, you must record each acquisition. If you can point out some language that exempts a non-license (face-to-face) acquisition, I would appreciate it, otherwise I don't see much wiggle-room there.
 
I don't see where it says you HAVE to enter guns NOT acquired by using the license. I assume the wording means any gun acquired through use of the license must be logged and I don't see why they would have any interest in keeping logs on guns purchased through legitimate means not involving the C&R license, as in a legal FTF purchase within my home state.

Until the ATF clearly and specifically says otherwise I see no need to log guns purchased retail from FFL dealers or from individuals in FTF transactions.
 
The C&R allows one to take direct delivery w/o going through an FFL 01 and paying a transfer fee. Buy FTF, or across state lines, you have to enter it in the book. If you are ever audited you'll find out for sure.
 
I have never heard of anyone with a C&R actually being audited.

I seriously doubt that any prosecution would result even if I am incorrect. When was the last time you heard of an FFL holder being prosecuted? Very rare and only for the most serious and deliberate violations.

It makes no sense to require a C&R holder to log a gun he buys in his own state like any other citizen. Most logically the log is for record keeping of guns acquired via the license, such as ordering delivery across state lines. If you must log each and every C&R eligible gun you buy then that means you must determine the age of every gun purchased. As I stated, even 001 FFL dealers can buy a gun as an individual for their own use and not log it. At least that's what I was told by two ATF agents back when I had an FFL. If such a gun is ever offered for sale then it must be logged as coming from yourself.

I may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. I will try to find out for sure but that regulation quoted above doesn't answer the question in my mind. If this is true I may surrender my C&R because I buy far more guns in person than I do across state lines using the license and who needs the bother of logging all of them? I'd feel better just paying the pawn shop the $15 for transfer.
 
You are required to log any transaction made of a C&R firearm while your 03 FFL is in effect. Feel free to not log them if you wish- it's your license and your decision. I don't understand why logging a transaction is so difficult, so my practice is to log any C&R acquired or disposed, with or without the license (items acquired before the license are not logged unless they are disposed). To me, it is almost no work for the upside of not worrying at all about consequences. If they ever audit (unlikely, but not impossible), the worst they will do is say "don't log this." If they find unlogged transactions that should be, I would be concerned about license suspension or whatever they dream up. No downside to doing it, lots of upside. For me, a no-brainer, but I am not into living dangerously.

Unlike an 01 FFL, everything you get is owned personally by you, and is part of your "collection." This to me indicates that

I have read question/answers from the ATF (I looked for it, and I can't remember where I found it), and their interpretation is the same as my practice. At the end of the day though, it's your choice as to what you do.

I sent an email to the national licensing center for clarification. I'll let you all know how it goes (I'll start a new thread under "general" for it).
 
Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
F: PD: FB: FT: nvc
AUG 10 1998

(inside address redacted)

Dear Mr. (redacted):

This is in response to your letter dated July 20, 1998, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. In your letter, you have inquired whether it is necessary to record the transfer of a curio or relic firearm in your acquisition and disposition records.

Please be advised that, in accordance with 27 CFR 178.125 (g), a licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. Therefore, regardless of whether the curio or relic firearm was obtained using your collector's license, the acquisition must be entered into your records upon receipt. Accordingly, if you, as a licensed collector, dispose of a curio or relic firearm, the disposition also must be entered into your record book regardless of when it was obtained.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your request. Should you require additional information or have any questions, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,
(initialed) KRD
for Christopher M. Cuyler
Chief, Firearms Programs Division

http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/gorge/4653/preowned.htm
 
Well, that letter from the ATF is clear enough. They are insisting on a stupid and ridiculous requirement that makes absolutely zero sense.

I am surrendering my C&R as it is a back-door registration system.
 
I am surrendering my C&R as it is a back-door registration system.
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How is it a registration system? The BATF never gets to see the log unless they audit you - and I don't think I've ever read of a C&R collector being audited. You, as a collector, are not a business and aren't required to surrender the log when the license expires.
 
C&R is a form of registration. So is the 4473. So is the 01 FFL. Fact of the matter is the old days are LONG gone.

I'm still happier than if I paid $20 per gun to my local dealer.
 
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